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Zurichman

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Ok gang I need some major help here.

I took my 2017 Roker Comp out for a test ride last night. Luv the bike hate the Sram shifting. I probably missed 30+ shifts last night on a 30 mile ride. I never knew what gear I was in and then when it seem I was in the right gear there seemed way too many jumps between the gearing. This is one guy that isn't buying into 1x especially the Sram. One Click down was no problem. The 2 clicks up was a major pain in the ass and most times was shifting down versus up.

I am working with a LBS now and figuring on probably changing everything over to Shimano 2x probably 50/34. I bent a ring outside ring on my Tamland. We replace that crank with a 105 shimano. The plan now is to at least use that 105 crank on the Roker and I replaced the 11x32 with a 11x36 on the Tamland also. We would be using one of those cassettes.


Here is my first major question. The LBS is willing to give me a credit for all the Sram stuff on the bike as it is brand new. What is it worth?


2nd question is the bottom bracket the same sleeve being Sram and will the Shiamano 105 fit on the Roker.

If anybody has done a conversion from 1x to 2x Shimano do you kind of remember what you paid in parts changing out the shifters and I guess all the hydraulics as they seem to be different?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Zman

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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #2 
So I heard back from my LBS.

Here is his estimate.

New shifters
Brakes combo
ultegra non series
rear derailleur xt
chain
bar wrap
labor

trading in my Sram parts

shiters
brakes
rear derailleur
crank

Belonging to the local bike club I get a 10% discount. With my discount bill comes to $1050.

Does that seem fair?

Thanks
Zman

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Shaun McNally

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Reply with quote  #3 
$1050!!  I'd get used to the 1x shifting[biggrin]
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #4 
Don't forget the $40-50 for the tanpan to make the Ultegra derailleur work with the 685 shifters.

Just ride the new bike a few more times and get used to the shifting. You might change your mind. In one of the dozens of other threads about you pondering this new bike or gearing in general, we figured your 2x Tamland only had 14 distinct gears as 6 were overlap (crossover beginning at the identical 50x25 and 34x17). It may be even less since the 50x11 and likely 50x12 would never get used except for lightly pedaling while coasting downhill. Ain't nobody pushing those 40mm tires at 25 mph across flat ground. The Tamland's 11-36 cassette is near identical percentage jumps to the Roker 11-42. Seriously. The percentage jumps of the 11-36 go up 1-2% mostly across the board. Two largest jumps in the 11-36 are 15%. The two largest jumps in the 11-42 are 16%. I'm not here to debate 1x vs 2x, but maybe you should try to get used to the SRAM shifting before discussing 'gaps' in gearing. Dropping all that money on a giant conversion to 2x at this point is crazy. I would sell that bike and buy a different 2x bike well before spending that cash on a conversion. You would come out waaaay ahead as far as $$$ goes.
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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle
Don't forget the $40-50 for the tanpan to make the Ultegra derailleur work with the 685 shifters.

Just ride the new bike a few more times and get used to the shifting. You might change your mind. In one of the dozens of other threads about you pondering this new bike or gearing in general, we figured your 2x Tamland only had 14 distinct gears as 6 were overlap (crossover beginning at the identical 50x25 and 34x17). It may be even less since the 50x11 and likely 50x12 would never get used except for lightly pedaling while coasting downhill. Ain't nobody pushing those 40mm tires at 25 mph across flat ground. The Tamland's 11-36 cassette is near identical percentage jumps to the Roker 11-42. Seriously. The percentage jumps of the 11-36 go up 1-2% mostly across the board. Two largest jumps in the 11-36 are 15%. The two largest jumps in the 11-42 are 16%. I'm not here to debate 1x vs 2x, but maybe you should try to get used to the SRAM shifting before discussing 'gaps' in gearing. Dropping all that money on a giant conversion to 2x at this point is crazy. I would sell that bike and buy a different 2x bike well before spending that cash on a conversion. You would come out waaaay ahead as far as $$$ goes.


Thanks for that reply Dangle this forum always makes sense to this newbie gravel rider. So this is my question now. Since I have never ridden Sram before what I have read or thought was suppose to happen was 1 click to go down the gears and double click to go up the gears. Is the double click to be instant or with a pause between the clicks as no matter what I did it seemed like 90% of the time the other night the bike was going down through the gears when I was double clicking. You probably are right in that I need to ride the bike and try to get use to it. I guess you could say I panic the other night and full disclosure is I don't have any/much patience. My thought process right away was if I can't shift/control this bike during daylight hours how in the world am I going to be able to control it say when I am tired and at the end of a 150/200 mile ride or worse yet riding in the dark. I will say this much for the bike because of it's light weight it climbs like a dream and I was super surprised on how it soaked up the bumps(smoother by far than my Tamland 1)on the downhill mt. road as it is nasty rough with washboards/ruts and an ill maintained fire tower road. The hydraulic brakes were pretty sweet also. After 1 ride with them don't think I would want mechanical brakes on another gravel bike.


Dangle not being into stats or knowing much about gear inches I couldn't figure out the jumps between the gearing. I went to Sheldron Brown's site and still couldn't figure it out. I am guessing now the the jumps in my mind were there because the other night I was either running in the low gears or the high gears as I couldn't figure the shifting out and yeah so the jumps would be there.

Thanks
Zman

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dangle

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Reply with quote  #6 
My best guess is that you made the jump from downtube shifters to STI at some point and eventually it became natural in daylight and at night. It just took a few rides to get there.
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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle
My best guess is that you made the jump from downtube shifters to STI at some point and eventually it became natural in daylight and at night. It just took a few rides to get there.


This is going to take more than a few rides as I have no clue what is going on. If it was only as easy as the down tube shifters to STI was. not lol

Zman

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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #8 
It made sense to me like this:

First click: "arms" the shifter.

- let it go: lever moves right, so does chain
- push it in to second or third click: lever moves left, so does chain
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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
It made sense to me like this:

First click: "arms" the shifter.

- let it go: lever moves right, so does chain
- push it in to second or third click: lever moves left, so does chain


Geese Louise that makes a lot of sense Dr. Welby. Can't wait to go out and try the bike again.

Thanks
Zman

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Croz

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
It made sense to me like this:

First click: "arms" the shifter.

- let it go: lever moves right, so does chain
- push it in to second or third click: lever moves left, so does chain


That is THE best description for new users of DoubleTap shifters I've ever heard! Perfect.

(I still prefer Shimano ;-)).



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Zurichman

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croz


That is THE best description for new users of DoubleTap shifters I've ever heard! Perfect.

(I still prefer Shimano ;-)).





I didn't have a choice. Love the bike now just have to kinda get use to the shifters. lol Since they were called double tap shifters thinking that was all I had to do lol


Zman

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Volsung

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Reply with quote  #12 
You could get 105 or ultegra for way cheaper from Merlin or CRC. Keep the 1x crankset. The newest Ultegra rear derailleur can clear a 36t cassette, otherwise get a Wolf Tooth roadlink and an older 6800 Ultegra.

6800 levers are only $212. You could do the entire thing for like 400.

PS if your bike shop is selling you Ultegra shifters and an XT rear derailleur they suck because if that's mechanical, it won't work. If it's Di2 they suck because they're up selling you.

EDIT- clarified some parts
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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #13 
No, I don't think the LBS is over charging.  Changing a drivetrain is just expensive and moving from single to double and Shimano to SRAM essentially requires a whole new system.  Once upon a time Shimano and SRAM had many parts which were interchangeable but that has since been "fixed" with the 11spd systems. :-(

A much lower cost, but still not cheap, option would be to stay with Shimano and go to a 2x11 system.

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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg
No, I don't think the LBS is over charging.  Changing a drivetrain is just expensive and moving from single to double and Shimano to SRAM essentially requires a whole new system.  Once upon a time Shimano and SRAM had many parts which were interchangeable but that has since been "fixed" with the 11spd systems. :-(

A much lower cost, but still not cheap, option would be to stay with Shimano and go to a 2x11 system.



The Roker Comp is all Sram(Rival). So  maybe Sram 2x but don't know much about that. 


Thanks
Zman

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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #15 
One other thing is that the Sram cassette has a 19-22t jump about right in the middle the cassette. With a 42 ring that's right in gravel cruising range (15mph-ish). Switching to the Shimano or Sunrace 11-42 cassette would give you a tighter 19-21t jump instead. So if when ride you find that shift from the 5th to 6th cog to be the annoying one, there's an easy solution.
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
One other thing is that the Sram cassette has a 19-22t jump about right in the middle the cassette. With a 42 ring that's right in gravel cruising range (15mph-ish). Switching to the Shimano or Sunrace 11-42 cassette would give you a tighter 19-21t jump instead. So if when ride you find that shift from the 5th to 6th cog to be the annoying one, there's an easy solution.


Nice catch! It looks like even their 11-46 cassette follows the 2 tooth jumps until they get to the 21-24.
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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
One other thing is that the Sram cassette has a 19-22t jump about right in the middle the cassette. With a 42 ring that's right in gravel cruising range (15mph-ish). Switching to the Shimano or Sunrace 11-42 cassette would give you a tighter 19-21t jump instead. So if when ride you find that shift from the 5th to 6th cog to be the annoying one, there's an easy solution.


Hey thanks drwelby and others for the info/help. Truth be told I just need to get out on the bike and get use to it. I will say on it's maiden voyage it passed 2-3 big tests for me. I hadn't been on the bike or a bike in months. I wanted to see how the bike would climb on the 3 mile mt. climb @ 7-8% avg. slope. It climbed like a dream. Coming off the mt. the hydro brakes did exactly what they were to do stop me on a dime. Lastly there was/is a really rough section at the bottom of the mt. The bike swallowed the bumps up with no vibration in my arms/handlebars. I was pleasantly surprised/thrilled/amazed about that. Night and day difference between the Roker and the Tamland.


Thanks
Zman

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If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #18 
Zman - Glad to hear the Roker is working out for you. What's the beefiest tire you think the Roker can fit?  
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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg
Zman - Glad to hear the Roker is working out for you. What's the beefiest tire you think the Roker can fit?  


NoCoGreg The verdict isn't out yet whether the Roker is working for me or not. I do luv the light weight of the bike and the way it soaks up the rough stuff. I only have had a chance to have it out once when I missed all the shifts and then a super cold streak hit here. I am off the next 2 days and Thursday they are calling for a rather decent day so plan on taking it out for a long test ride.

As far as what is the beefiest tire I think I could get on it. I just went out and measured. I still have the stock tires/wheels on it and they are the Clement mso 40 mm. I measured a 1/2" clearance on both sides yet but don't know what that means in tire size I could still go up. Did you read the article over at gravel cyclist on the Raleigh Sport JOM built up and if I am remembering right got it down to 17 something lbs.  Had I had it to do over again I might have bought the 2 gearing Sport. It does weigh 2 lbs. heavier from stock though than mine and I shouldn't have to spend as much money to get my bike below 20 lbs(weighed 20 lbs 12 oz. with the wheel reflectors on and front and rear reflectors removed no pedals and a heavier Brooks saddle installed instead of the light weight stock one and a Garmin GPS mount installed) just another set of wheels should get me there. If you are thinking of buying one you better pull the trigger as I don't know how many they have left anymore. Probably give a ride report on Thursday night or the weekend.

Zman

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If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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Yakswak

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurichman


NoCoGreg The verdict isn't out yet whether the Roker is working for me or not. I do luv the light weight of the bike and the way it soaks up the rough stuff. I only have had a chance to have it out once when I missed all the shifts and then a super cold streak hit here. I am off the next 2 days and Thursday they are calling for a rather decent day so plan on taking it out for a long test ride.

As far as what is the beefiest tire I think I could get on it. I just went out and measured. I still have the stock tires/wheels on it and they are the Clement mso 40 mm. I measured a 1/2" clearance on both sides yet but don't know what that means in tire size I could still go up. Did you read the article over at gravel cyclist on the Raleigh Sport JOM built up and if I am remembering right got it down to 17 something lbs.  Had I had it to do over again I might have bought the 2 gearing Sport. It does weigh 2 lbs. heavier from stock though than mine and I shouldn't have to spend as much money to get my bike below 20 lbs(weighed 20 lbs 12 oz. with the wheel reflectors on and front and rear reflectors removed no pedals and a heavier Brooks saddle installed instead of the light weight stock one and a Garmin GPS mount installed) just another set of wheels should get me there. If you are thinking of buying one you better pull the trigger as I don't know how many they have left anymore. Probably give a ride report on Thursday night or the weekend.

Zman



Just for reference since the saddle was referred to in your above post I measured it as 290g on my scale. The seatpost also was 290g. I only measured these as I was swapping for a non offset Thomson post that I had on hand (which measured 240g). I’ll probably swap the saddle soon to one of my old faves.
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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurichman


As far as what is the beefiest tire I think I could get on it. I just went out and measured. I still have the stock tires/wheels on it and they are the Clement mso 40 mm. I measured a 1/2" clearance on both sides yet but don't know what that means in tire size I could still go up. Did you read the article over at gravel cyclist on the Raleigh Sport JOM built up and if I am remembering right got it down to 17 something lbs.  Had I had it to do over again I might have bought the 2 gearing Sport. It does weigh 2 lbs. heavier from stock though than mine and I shouldn't have to spend as much money to get my bike below 20 lbs(weighed 20 lbs 12 oz. with the wheel reflectors on and front and rear reflectors removed no pedals and a heavier Brooks saddle installed instead of the light weight stock one and a Garmin GPS mount installed) just another set of wheels should get me there. If you are thinking of buying one you better pull the trigger as I don't know how many they have left anymore. Probably give a ride report on Thursday night or the weekend.

Thanks for the info on the tires.  I'm still trying to buy a 60cm Roker.  I thought I had one but it fell through. Was going to get a DB Haanjo but the fit and geometry of the Roker is much better for me.  You're right in your assessment on availability.

Calculating max tire size of a 40mm tire with 1/2" (12.7mm) spacing on each side of the tire.  

12.7mm - 3mm = 9.7mm
9.7mm * 2 = 19.4mm
40mm + 19.4mm = 59.4mm 

The above is using the max tire size calculation from:
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/how-wide-a-tire-can-i-run/

To calculate your maximum tire width, start with the smallest clearance between your existing tire and bike.

Then deduct the minimum clearance, 3 mm, to get the existing available clearance for your wider tire. Multiply this by 2 (you have that much room on both sides of the tire), add the current tire width, and you get the maximum tire width.

However IMO a 3mm gap is overly optimistic, but it does seem a 45mm tire will still have significant room for mud.  I also think you'd find insufficient clearance in other places if trying to fit a 60mm (2-3/8" wide tire).

Thanks,
Greg




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squak

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg

Thanks for the info on the tires.  I'm still trying to buy a 60cm Roker.  I thought I had one but it fell through. Was going to get a DB Haanjo but the fit and geometry of the Roker is much better for me.  You're right in your assessment on availability.

Calculating max tire size of a 40mm tire with 1/2" (12.7mm) spacing on each side of the tire.  

12.7mm - 3mm = 9.7mm
9.7mm * 2 = 19.4mm
40mm + 19.4mm = 59.4mm 

The above is using the max tire size calculation from:
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/how-wide-a-tire-can-i-run/

To calculate your maximum tire width, start with the smallest clearance between your existing tire and bike.

Then deduct the minimum clearance, 3 mm, to get the existing available clearance for your wider tire. Multiply this by 2 (you have that much room on both sides of the tire), add the current tire width, and you get the maximum tire width.

However IMO a 3mm gap is overly optimistic, but it does seem a 45mm tire will still have significant room for mud.  I also think you'd find insufficient clearance in other places if trying to fit a 60mm (2-3/8" wide tire).

Thanks,
Greg




Out of curiosity I tried a Specialized Renegade 1.95 (2.1" or 53.6mm actual) on my Roker Comp.  Doesn't fit in the front or rear.  In the front there's basically zero clearance, just barely touches.  In the rear there's maybe 2mm of clearance at the seatstays and zero clearance at the chainstays.  45mm is as big as I'd go.    
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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by squak
Out of curiosity I tried a Specialized Renegade 1.95 (2.1" or 53.6mm actual) on my Roker Comp.  Doesn't fit in the front or rear.  In the front there's basically zero clearance, just barely touches.  In the rear there's maybe 2mm of clearance at the seatstays and zero clearance at the chainstays.  45mm is as big as I'd go.    

Squak - thanks for checking.  From that a set of tires that measure (not to be confused with the specified width) 45mm will certainly fit both front and rear - it just becomes a question of how much clearance one wants for mud.  Since I seldom encounter mud I'm fine with about 4 to 5mm.

On another note - I just got a confirmation email from Erik's Bike Shop they're shipping a 60cm Roker Sport today.  Woohooooo!!!! :-)  Oh, and they did promise to remove the RD prior to shipment so hopefully I won't need a replacement hanger to get out and ride.


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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg

Squak - thanks for checking.  From that a set of tires that measure (not to be confused with the specified width) 45mm will certainly fit both front and rear - it just becomes a question of how much clearance one wants for mud.  Since I seldom encounter mud I'm fine with about 4 to 5mm.

On another note - I just got a confirmation email from Erik's Bike Shop they're shipping a 60cm Roker Sport today.  Woohooooo!!!! :-)  Oh, and they did promise to remove the RD prior to shipment so hopefully I won't need a replacement hanger to get out and ride.




Congrats on becoming a Roker owner NoCoGreg.  Lol on asking them to remover the rederailleur as we don't need any more discussion on whether to straighten the RD or get another one from Raleigh. lol

Zman

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If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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