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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #1 
Listening to a podcast yesterday on my way home from a business trip about the new Ultegra stuff and all of the options...why no 1x?  Sram is killing it with their 1x systems and seems like a no-brainer to make a 1) clutch RD 2) 1x crank/ring and 3) a dummy lefthand brake lever.  I currently run a ghetto-fied 1x with Shimano 105 shifters, a short cage Ultegra r. der., A Wolf Tooth Road Link, a XT 11-40 cassette, a Wolf Tooth narrow/wide 42t chainring, and a Praxis Works chainguide.  Works great most of the time, but the clutch would be nice and I hate that the left lever isn't brake-only (OCD thing).  I love Shimano's smooth shifting and the design of the STI system.  But I think Sram is going to get my business next year with a proper dedicated 1x system on my CruX.  Shimano is just so conservative but they have to see all the folks doing 1x on cx/gravel and realize they are missing out.
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egear

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Reply with quote  #2 
Cant you just an xtr rear der?   Those clutch based aren't they?
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egear

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Reply with quote  #3 
Oh wait that wont work with the brifters will. 
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ridemagnetic

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Reply with quote  #4 
It took Shimano 12 years to finally aero route their gear cables, so I wouldn't hold your breath on 1x.  
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Volsung

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Reply with quote  #5 
the new DA and Ultegra RDs are both clutch and can (apparently) clear a 40T cassette, so it's really only a lack of brake levers without shifty parts holding anyone back.
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tinkerbike

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Reply with quote  #6 
The newest Dura-Ace and Ultregra are Shadow derailleurs, but there is no clutch mechanism on the cage.

...Actually, if I was a Microshift product manager I'd be all over this omission.
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BrownDog

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Reply with quote  #7 
What podcast?
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GSPChilliwack

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Reply with quote  #8 
As someone who used to spend a lot of time riding and dreaming about motorcycles, Shimano reminds me of Honda: They could build what I want--and do it brilliantly--but they're absolutely certain of what they *think* I *need*, and build that instead.
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ljsmith

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Reply with quote  #9 
I think it is because the gravel market is still relatively small. The vast majority of these groups are installed on road bikes, which the 1x system is not likely to make much of an impact. So it's not really impacting their sales. Also, I believe anyone who makes a narrow wide chainring has to pay SRAM because they have it patented, so Shimano does not want to pay them. One of my mountain bikes has an XTR 1x group. The chainring does not have narrow wide, but rather has bigger teeth. It causes the drivetrain to be really noisy, so I am not a fan of Shimano 1x groups.
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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownDog
What podcast?


One I heard on the Paceline that was from earlier this year.
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tim.wilson.chicago

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Reply with quote  #11 
I'm running 11-40 with XTR Di2 in back, 42t SRAM Force 1 in front, with disk road Di2 levers. It's an absolutely fabulous 1x gravel setup.
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codenamebob

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim.wilson.chicago
I'm running 11-40 with XTR Di2 in back, 42t SRAM Force 1 in front, with disk road Di2 levers. It's an absolutely fabulous 1x gravel setup.


Same set up, but I have 11-42 cassette with Wolf Tooth 38t upfront. You can change the ring up front with Wolf Tooth though I haven’t yet. I use it on the road with a road wheel set and 11-36, the XTR shifts seamlessly on both cassettes with no adjustments. Di2 Road levers are fantastic.
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HollyBoni

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Reply with quote  #13 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Volsung
the new DA and Ultegra RDs are both clutch and can (apparently) clear a 40T cassette, so it's really only a lack of brake levers without shifty parts holding anyone back.


Nope.

They're Shadow derailleurs, not Shadow +.

Shadow is just a design change, single pivot, they can clear larger cogs easier and the derailleurs don't stick out as much.

Shadow + = clutch. 

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tim.wilson.chicago

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Reply with quote  #14 
Di2 solves the dead-shifter problem too. Program the left side shifter to mirror the right. Amaze your friends shifting while you eat (right-handed) your energy bar. Or, you can do what I do: set it up with the left-side paddles flipped. Up-down on the right, down-up on the left. Sometimes when I'm tired and riding on the ramps, I'll do my shifting with just the inner paddles, which are easier to reach from there: up on the right, down on the left. That also helps with heavy gloves. Or, if you are really ham-fisted, you can set it up up-up, down-down for E-tap style shifting no matter what paddles you hit. Lots of options.
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tim.wilson.chicago

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Reply with quote  #15 
In response to the original poster, I think Shimano got blind-sided by the whole 1x movement, mountain and road. It went against their product roadmap everywhere, and now they're playing catch-up. Kudos to SRAM for seeing that 1x would work and would be immediately appealing to a lot of riders. Likewise, though, I think SRAM got blind-sided by electronic shifting, which Shimano has executed brilliantly. E-tap is a good start, but SRAM is still years behind here. Case in point: They have still to release an electronic version of any X-horizon derailleur. By contrast the XTR Di2 derailleur is one of the most advanced, best-functioning pieces of cycling equipment I know of.
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tim.wilson.chicago

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Reply with quote  #16 
And I'll add that while Shimano was being blind-sided by 1x and SRAM was being blind-sided by electronic shifting, Campagnolo was being blind-sided by disk brakes, another area where Shimano has excelled.
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heybrady

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Reply with quote  #17 
What is everyone's opinion of ghetto Shimano 1x?  I have a set of RS685 levers and brakes waiting for my winter gravel/road build that I really want to use but I think I would like to try the build as a 1x.  

Is the left lever 'floppy' or does it stay in place for the most part?  
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tim.wilson.chicago

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heybrady
Is the left lever 'floppy' or does it stay in place for the most part?  


If the outer lever didn't also work the brake, you could probably ignore it, but with the STI design, I'd be annoyed by it and worried that braking could be compromised by a lever flipping out of my hand at the wrong time.

Maybe you could rig a short length of cable and housing, locked down together (soldered?) at the far end (under your handlebar tape?) to neutralize the shifter and remove the flop.
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oleritter

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Reply with quote  #19 
Because their 2X has such good front shifting?  
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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heybrady
What is everyone's opinion of ghetto Shimano 1x?  I have a set of RS685 levers and brakes waiting for my winter gravel/road build that I really want to use but I think I would like to try the build as a 1x.  

Is the left lever 'floppy' or does it stay in place for the most part?  


I have it...the lever is not floppy at all and just stays in place.
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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oleritter
Because their 2X has such good front shifting?  


Agreed; but so many CX racers and gravel folks are going 1x why not jump on the bandwagon and produce a proper dedicated system to sell more stuff?
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SuperDave

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Reply with quote  #22 
I would expect that Shimano will develop their product range at the same pace and direction that they've done on the MTB side.
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teoblar

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Reply with quote  #23 
You can run a WolfTooth TanPan on a mechanical mtb derailleur with your road shifters.  You can also remove the shifter flapper on your left brifter, but don't hold out hope that you will ever be able to put it back in.  Way to over-engineered (compared to Sram) to be able to rebuild.  So many tiny springs and screws.  I have never tried that surgical procedure on a Shimano hydro setup, though.  I doubt it's any better, though.

Does Sram really own the patent on narrow-wide?  WolfTooth, RaceFace, Praxis, Rotor, and everyone else is paying up?  
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TiGeo


I have it...the lever is not floppy at all and just stays in place.


This! I don't see why the lever would be more floppy than when it's in the small ring and doesn't have cable tension? The only rattling I have ever heard on a 685 lever was because those covers aren't screwed on very tight. Maybe others have had different experience?

I'm surprised nobody in this thread has mentioned the Shimano road rear derailleur tension adjustment (because a Shimano road 'clutch' always comes up in a 1x discussion). Every Shimano road rear derailleur I have seen has two different tension settings. They ship in the low tension setting. It's <10 minutes, free and anybody with a couple allen keys should be able to do it. I described it here and there's a video from a Slowtwitch thread going through every step.

The 'Shadow' naming was for a design that stuck out less so it was less likely get caught on something. It never had anything to do with chain tension.

(None of this was directed at TiGeo)
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HollyBoni

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle

The 'Shadow' naming was for a design that stuck out less so it was less likely get caught on something. It never had anything to do with chain tension.


The difference is small but in my experience single pivot RDs can usually keep a bit more tension in the chain over rough terrain. One less pivot point, less wobble overall. 
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