overcharged Show full post »
overcharged
I kinda stayed out of the conversation for a while to see where it went. Bottom line there are enough people that think it is a good value that they sell it out. If you don't, don't pay for it.
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overcharged
Also I know no reason why you can not ride unclosed roads the same day as the event🤔. honestly I don't know why anyone would care. I mean the thing is sold out. maybe you don't come down the finish chute.
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GHC
Silly money to pay imo.  Not silly money to pay for those that do, and I hope those that do, and everyone involved, have a great time and achieve their goal for the day.  All good. 

Live and let live.

We are gravel riders.

adding: its a (kind of) free country .... nothing stopping anybody from becoming a promoter, or investing capital to build a hotel in rural kansas, but don't expect either to be financially lucrative easily.

(not to hijack the thread, but I am pretty darn worked up about one thing.   It's Salsa.  They have a carbon bike called the Warbird.  It costs a zillion bucks, and it seems to always be sold out because they sell every one they make.  I don't mind them making money, but the zillion bucks is like >5 times their cost of material.  I also did some research, and someone told me their CEO has no other job, just Salsa, and lives in a really nice house.  I am thinking about boycotting them until I can buy a carbon Warbird at $10 bucks over Salsa's material cost) ((humor = no offense intended, everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if it's different than mine)))

spring is here, time to ride happy
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Zurichman

spring is here, time to ride happy

Spring might be here where you live. It is not here in the tundra land of Pa. Spitting snow 34 deg. F and 15-20 mph winds probably taking  the wind chill down into the 20's I think the Robins had spring fever and brought their packed suitcases way too early as they have been here about 3 weeks now.

checked weatherman.com

33 deg. F here with 18 mph winds taking the wind chills down to 22 deg. F dang


Zman
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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overcharged
ghc- how did you know I ride a Warbird?  have had is since last year.  great value for the money - and it the black carbon one 😉 LOL
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307Rider
FYI a new Series came about in 2017! A series of 5 races of Wild West Gravel on historical trails. Win cash money for top 3 men’s & women’s finishers, more cash money end of the series & tons of sweet swag from any race you choose & end of series. Every race ends with a Street festival! Cold beers, Mead, games for adults & kids. Tons of fun.
Check out year 2 of the series kicking off this May 19th, 2018. Cheers 🍻
Checkout the WGGS site and add us to your bucket lists. These are epic routes full of history🤙🏻

http://www.wyominggravel.com
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Marinerecon
Zurichman wrote:

spring is here, time to ride happy


Spring might be here where you live. It is not here in the tundra land of Pa. Spitting snow 34 deg. F and 15-20 mph winds probably taking  the wind chill down into the 20's I think the Robins had spring fever and brought their packed suitcases way too early as they have been here about 3 weeks now.

checked weatherman.com

33 deg. F here with 18 mph winds taking the wind chills down to 22 deg. F dang


Zman

You never figured in the R&D costs, startup costs, etc..if they are selling out they must be a great deal or a bike that is beyond compare
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ridemagnetic
The biggest gravel event in the world just got a little bigger. Apparently Stanley Nice is gonna toe the line at DK this year!

https://www.cxmagazine.com/sven-nys-stanley-nice-2018-dirty-kanza-200-gravel-race

I still ain't paying!
A great set of wheels will make an average frame ride better. It doesn't work the other way around.  ~ridemagnetic
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reubenc
GCN is sending someone as well - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xIJ6DOh5MY
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DerekJ_MI
Fresh back from Emporia and I have some thoughts....

I'm a capitalist and whole hardily embrace and admire what DK Promotions has done and is accomplishing, for themselves.  They are a for profit organization and they and Emporia, as a community, is doing very nicely with this event, thank you very much.

This said, as a consumer, I don't think I'll ever go back.  Never say never.

Having ridden the event for the past two years I provide some perspective.  I've come down to this event because I really like the flint hills area of Kansas.  It is truly beautiful.  It's a very unique area and worth the trip.  And riding my bike in it is an exceptional experience, like none other.  But, bottom line, this event is just not a reasonable value, at least not any more.  $200 to ride an unsupported event is one thing but when I add in all the other costs it set me north of $1200 for the weekend.  There were a few nice give backs.  This year you got a 24 oz water bottle, a pair of socks, a small bottle of orange seal (provided by orange seal), bar tape and a couple of other small insignificant items.  But that's it.  Last year I recall that there was more, much more, especially significant product samples.  Now I don't sign up for rides and judge the event based on the gifts and sway given away.  But all thing being equal, you can't help but take note of it.

The gravel expo was nice too but it was just that, an expo in which you couldn't really buy anything.  Well, you could but you had buy the items in Jim's Gravel City Adventure and supply shop, which was a zoo. I'm sure this was prearranged by DK Promotions. And there were no deals at all.  A few minor swag items here and there but I have enough Koozies and such.  Even Chamois Butter was only handing out coupons for a few dollars off of there product.  Last year I got several big tubes!  I was interested in a Kaat bike rack.  When I asked the dealer about how to purchase one right there they only pointed to GCA&S store and said good luck.  Ummm, nope.

Supply and demand, yeah I get it.  But this year it seemed to be up more that I noticed it. That didn't happen last year.

So, I happily completed the event and I can check this off the list.  But as a cyclist who is doing more and more events, it seems like these larger more prominent rides are evolving away from the essence of what they say they are all about, to make a buck events.  I don't know. I spoke to a few others while there and I heard similar feelings.

They say that you get what you pay for (but you also pay what they can get from you!).  And DK Promotions LLC, and others like them are for profit organization, make no mistake about it.  Good for them!

Congratulations to all that finished, or even attempted to finish.  And even if you didn't finish, it's quite an accomplishment that few people ever attempt to do.  Something to be very proud of.

Finally, the good news is that there a lots and lots of reasonable rides and races going on all over America today, thanks to the efforts of DK and others.  They are also in epic locations.  And that is great for the more value minded cyclists. 
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thumper88
It's a well-run race, speaking as someone who has done more than 100 of them, of various kinds, and worth the cost... if you race.
If you don't race and just want an organized challenge, it still works.
If you're a loner iconoclast, don't race and aren't interested in "events" it's completely reasonable to dodge it.
As for the swag, and buying standard bike parts you can get anywhere at the expo or the official shop, that was the last thing on my list of wants. I came fully equipped and didn't need parts, lubricants, tires, wheels etc. An event isn't the place to buy those, unless yours broke in a warmup, or you forgot something.
Souvenir t-shiorts, mugs, beer glasses etc., sure.
Great experience, great locals, and the most iconic terrain in gravel racing. 
It's THE classic.
That said, no other kind of racing is as varied as gravel and there are plenty of events out there close to you wherever you are, and some that are free.
That freedom of choice is the best thing about this corner of cycling. Road racing seems like living in a dictatorship, by comparison.
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Marinerecon
thumper88 wrote:
It's a well-run race, speaking as someone who has done more than 100 of them, of various kinds, and worth the cost... if you race.
If you don't race and just want an organized challenge, it still works.
If you're a loner iconoclast, don't race and aren't interested in "events" it's completely reasonable to dodge it.
As for the swag, and buying standard bike parts you can get anywhere at the expo or the official shop, that was the last thing on my list of wants. I came fully equipped and didn't need parts, lubricants, tires, wheels etc. An event isn't the place to buy those, unless yours broke in a warmup, or you forgot something.
Souvenir t-shiorts, mugs, beer glasses etc., sure.
Great experience, great locals, and the most iconic terrain in gravel racing. 
It's THE classic.
That said, no other kind of racing is as varied as gravel and there are plenty of events out there close to you wherever you are, and some that are free.
That freedom of choice is the best thing about this corner of cycling. Road racing seems like living in a dictatorship, by comparison.
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PlanetU
We'd love to have some of you come to Cedar City, UT for our August 18th Cedar City Fire Road 100K. 40% off with coupon SupportTheSmallRaces. 
:-)
Race details and link to registration at http://www.GravelGrinder.com

Coupon expires July 22.
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Koyote
overcharged wrote:
I am tired of paying to ride my bike.  Let's face these things are challenges for most of us and we only compete with ourselves and our buddies.
 
The Dk is one of the biggest gravel events around KC and I did it last year and will never pay to do it again.

I refuse to give any more money to the DK or anything DK promotions does after doing the DK100 last year.  The reason for this is they provide very little for the money.  T- shirt, Socks, pint glass, insurance and coordinating everything.  This is about a 20-25 per person cost but why not round this up to $35.  They collected $330,000 for that race in entry fees. I don't mind you making a profit off a race but after everything is said and done I would think it would be fair to say they are around 180-220k.  


That is some serious money. I won't be contributing to a race that takes advantage of my pocket book.

And before you say that the DK is the premier gravel event- it is not. Tell me in the comments below what they do different then other gravel races to get that status.

I have been to better events - Cedar Cross, BT Epic, Pony Express,  they had the same atmosphere and I honestly had more fun at them.  

Rant over - so do you think the DK is a worth the money? is it the best Gravel event ever?


This thread is pretty long, so perhaps this has already been pointed out -- so I apologize if this is redundant.

Contrary to the OP's opinion, the Dirty Kanza is obviously underpriced, given that the quantity of slots demanded exceeds the quantity available. This is why the organizers went to a lottery system, when a simple price increase would have accomplished the same result (equilibrium) and generated more revenue and profit for them.



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Zurichman
Koyote wrote:


This thread is pretty long, so perhaps this has already been pointed out -- so I apologize if this is redundant.

Contrary to the OP's opinion, the Dirty Kanza is obviously underpriced, given that the quantity of slots demanded exceeds the quantity available. This is why the organizers went to a lottery system, when a simple price increase would have accomplished the same result (equilibrium) and generated more revenue and profit for them.





Koyote Not sure I can agree with you. Yes it might be a premier event, yes it might have been the race that has brought gravel riding/race to the forefront but as to the best value not sure of that. With the lottery system and when friends want to go together and some not get selected it might hurt themselves in the future but then maybe not. Maybe since it's in Kansas and lots of folks will still want to make the ride including out of state riders. What I would disagree with you is the value of the ride.

I have been doing gravel racing now for a year and 1 ride/race stands out above all the others so far.

Pony Express 75/120 miler in Marysville Kansas Only 1 mile of hard road start and finish. $45 entry fee I believe. Town welcomed all riders with welcome arms. Free camping in the town park, hotels didn't raise their rates just for the race and about a 45 minute to 1 hr. free swag give away the night before.

Funks Bottom Ohio was free

Dirty Pecan in Florida was free

Bootlegger 60/100 in North Carolina I think was $70

Gravel Race up Spruce Knob in West Virginia was $40 - $70 I think

Farmers Daughter New York $40 - $50

So yes there are still lots of gravel rides out there that has low fees or are free which I donate some money to to try and help them out. I just hope that the fees that DK200 are getting don't trickle down to other races. I won't say I will never do DK200 but it isn't high on my list right now as there are plenty other races out there that I want to do. I will pay some higher entry fees that I have done so far as long as the towns don't increase their hotel rates just for that race week but hey that is just me.

Ride/race where you want to.

Next up for me is the Rose Mt. Rumble in NH.

Zman
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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Koyote
Zurichman wrote:


Koyote Not sure I can agree with you. Yes it might be a premier event, yes it might have been the race that has brought gravel riding/race to the forefront but as to the best value not sure of that. With the lottery system and when friends want to go together and some not get selected it might hurt themselves in the future but then maybe not. Maybe since it's in Kansas and lots of folks will still want to make the ride including out of state riders. What I would disagree with you is the value of the ride.

I have been doing gravel racing now for a year and 1 ride/race stands out above all the others so far.

Pony Express 75/120 miler in Marysville Kansas Only 1 mile of hard road start and finish. $45 entry fee I believe. Town welcomed all riders with welcome arms. Free camping in the town park, hotels didn't raise their rates just for the race and about a 45 minute to 1 hr. free swag give away the night before.

Funks Bottom Ohio was free

Dirty Pecan in Florida was free

Bootlegger 60/100 in North Carolina I think was $70

Gravel Race up Spruce Knob in West Virginia was $40 - $70 I think

Farmers Daughter New York $40 - $50

So yes there are still lots of gravel rides out there that has low fees or are free which I donate some money to to try and help them out. I just hope that the fees that DK200 are getting don't trickle down to other races. I won't say I will never do DK200 but it isn't high on my list right now as there are plenty other races out there that I want to do. I will pay some higher entry fees that I have done so far as long as the towns don't increase their hotel rates just for that race week but hey that is just me.

Ride/race where you want to.

Next up for me is the Rose Mt. Rumble in NH.

Zman


Zman, you have completely failed to understand my point.

I neither wrote nor implied anything about the DK's value, as that is personal, is subjective. I was writing about the market: at the current price (which you personally feel is too high), there are more willing participants than open slots. That is the sense in which I wrote that the race is currently underpriced, and the organizers could raise the price instead of using a lottery system; a price increase would reduce the number of willing participants down to equality with the number of slots, and would also earn more revenue for the organizers. In fact, given that they instead resorted to a lottery rather than a price increase, it is ridiculous to argue that the DK is overpriced. 

Again, please understand this: when you state that it is overpriced, that is your judgment or valuation; don't confuse that with other people's judgments. Your judgment is not universal.
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Koyote
PS: Zman, we must be in the same neck of the woods. I was signed up for Funk Bottoms but had to skip it for a family event. Yeah, no registration fee! Looked like a good event. I was interested in GRUSK, too, but had family in town. There's a theme here...Without family I could ride more.
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Salsa_Sucks_Willy
If only you knew what they charged for sponsorship....money is definitely being made here
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Koyote
Salsa_Sucks_Willy wrote:
If only you knew what they charged for sponsorship....money is definitely being made here


Sure, and why shouldn’t they make money? It looks like a lot of work and stress, and they are offering a service. I generally don’t give away my time and skills for free.
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clarksonxc
After taking a look at the 9+ pages on the DK transfer thread, it got me thinking.  Why don't they just run this event over two weekends?  Have the people who want to race it on one weekend, and the others fighting for a finish the next.  I'm sure there could be some way to sort it out that isn't too complicated.  Course setup would be partially done, crowd control materials staged, hotel/lodging reservations wouldn't be as stressed.
I'm still not sure why they haven't raised prices yet.  If they feel that $200 is at the ceiling of "keeping it accessible to everyone" then that just makes the dual weekend idea that much more feasible.  I'd love to hear others' thoughts!
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OffB10Path
It's up to every individual whether an event is worth the money.  There are some events I'd pay for just to say I've done, but I realized a few years ago that for me it didn't make sense for me in most cases to pay several hundred bucks to go for a bike ride I would gladly do on my own or with some friends absent the event.  Instead of doing an event, do the ride another time and take the money you saved and treat yourself to nice dinner or something afterwards instead of the post race pizza or BBQ.
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Koyote
OffB10Path wrote:
It's up to every individual whether an event is worth the money.  There are some events I'd pay for just to say I've done, but I realized a few years ago that for me it didn't make sense for me in most cases to pay several hundred bucks to go for a bike ride I would gladly do on my own or with some friends absent the event.  Instead of doing an event, do the ride another time and take the money you saved and treat yourself to nice dinner or something afterwards instead of the post race pizza or BBQ.


Bingo.

Again, the fact that the DK has resorted to a lottery system just confirms that they are undercharging. They could make more money, and not have to bother with a lottery, by just raising the price.

Under the circumstances, the thread title should really be "Why do we keep paying so little for the DK?"
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Zurichman
Maybe the locals would go for over $200 but not sure all of the out of state people would with hotels raising their rates for just that week. I won't say that I won't do it some day but it's not high on my list. I know a lot of people will say that the entry fee is a small portion but adding up the high hotel fees unless you stay in the dorms along with the crew fee costs scares me away.i The grass roots rides that I have enjoyed so far would be.

1. Pony Express 120
2. Ride the Ridges Cabot VT. was what I would guess 85% gravel which is saying something for the East Coast.
3. Bootlegger 100 Lenoir NC
4. Funks Bottom Ohio
5. Dirty Pecan FL.

I have yet to pay over $100 entry fees and have had a lot of fun doing these rides/races. I might break that thought process this year to ride the unPAved in my home state of PA. this fall.

Zman
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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clarksonxc
Zman!  Glad to see you're back!  
Yeah I'm not crazy about entry fees getting up that high unless more amenities (lodging?) are incorporated like some all-inclusive kind of deal.  I think a 2-weekend DK would be great because then everyone would get in.
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reubenc
Koyote wrote:


Bingo.

Again, the fact that the DK has resorted to a lottery system just confirms that they are undercharging. They could make more money, and not have to bother with a lottery, by just raising the price.

Under the circumstances, the thread title should really be "Why do we keep paying so little for the DK?"


Economically, they should probably have a tiered lottery system where you can buy in at different max amounts. They'd take all the people who'd pay $400, fill up the rest with "randomly" selected $300 entrants, and then everybody who was willing to only pay $200 doesn't get in.
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