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rockymountainhigh

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Reply with quote  #1 

Possibly looking to drop some weight via new wheels on my 15 Specialized Diverge Expert Carbon...

Has the Axis 4.0 SCS wheels now that came spec'd on it. 

They are fine but I am possibly looking to go all carbon to reduce the weight down a bit more since I really cannot get it lower anywhere else on the bike. 

I do bang the gravel pretty hard and ride on some rather nasty stuff way up here in the Rockies quite frequently. I am not what you would call an "aggressive" rider or "speed demon" on the descent though. I like going uphill (crazy I know) to explore new places etc. 

So the wheelset needs to be robust but I doubt I will be doing any big drops or bouncing down the road at frame splitting speeds. 

What does everyone recommend? 

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clarksonxc

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Reply with quote  #2 
Enve makes awesome stuff but very expensive, if they have your configuration in the Dark Deals section then you can jump on that for a song.
As for Specialized, I've heard great things about the Roval carbon wheels.  I have the alloy Traverse Fatties on my AWOL and I really like them.
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DrSpoke

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Reply with quote  #3 
Before buying I recommend doing some research on the SCS (Short Chain Stay) wheels/hubs.  They are/were a proprietary design from Specialized that has pretty much been abandoned.  Basically, in order to use a Shimano drivetrain on a short chain stay bike they were required to maintain a chainline within Shimano specs.  Specialized solution was to us road spaced dropouts @ 130mm and squeeze in a disc mount on the non-drive side.  Almost all the other gravel bike manufactures went with the 135/142mm (mtn bike) standard and used a slightly longer chain stay.  Specialized did make a derailleur hanger that allows for 135mm hubs but the reviews on it are mixed.

Accordingly, sourcing the hubs is the hardest part.  I'm aware of only one other manufacturer that made hubs to this spec.  So the Specialized wheels are about the only alternative.  You could buy another alu set and rebuild it w/a carbon rim or, as previously suggested, get the Roval wheels which are very good.

Also be aware that Specialized changed the front axle diameter from 15mm to 12mm during the Diverge run.  I think the new wheelsets include a 12mm front.  If so, and you have the 15mm front, you can get a set where the rear wheel fits but not the front.

Here are some links I found a couple of years ago when I had a couple of friends go through all these same issues.  In my opinion, the Diverge as a whole is a well designed bike but it's wheel/hub design does not lend itself to aftermarket upgrades.  So if you like to fiddle with bikes, it's not a great candidate.  If you like to ride an off the shelf bike it is very good.

http://service.specialized.com/collateral/ownersguide/new/assets/pdf/0000040845.pdf

https://bikerumor.com/2012/11/28/tech-breakdown-how-135mm-rear-hub-spacing-affects-road-bike-chainline-shifting/

https://bikerumor.com/2015/10/19/2016-specialized-crux-cyclocross-roubaix-endurance-road-bikes-gain-thru-axles-but-theyre-weird/

https://bikerumor.com/2015/10/20/2016-specialized-scs-135mm-disc-brake-thru-axle-design-explanation-development-story/

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/specialized/scs-wtf-345626.html

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rockymountainhigh

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Reply with quote  #4 

Thanks everyone! 

I don't really tinker with my bikes other than to get them setup for riding the types of stuff I like to ride. 

I caught some flak from the bike shop folks about wanting to put a 40 toother on the back for better climbing capabilities...but where I ride a 32 isn't anywhere close to big enough. 

So as far as the wheels go I basically don't care about brands or any other fancy crap. As long as they fit the bike and are lighter than what I have I am happy. 

Do you guys know which Roval wheels specifically work? 

This is the first "real" bike I have ever had...my old bike was a run of the mill hardtail Trek MTB from like 2013. Rode great and is a tank but tipped the scales at over 40lbs. The Diverge I have down to about 20 even and was hoping to get it to like 18.5 or so. The thing is super sweet. I am no pro so for my needs anything else I do to it is icing on the cake. 

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clarksonxc

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Reply with quote  #5 
Did you get your bike at your LBS that carries Specialized?  They would be the best bet if you don't mind paying a bit extra.  All the work/risk to make the hubs fit your dropouts is on them, and all you have to do is tell them which model you want.
Which brings me to my next question - what do you want to spend?  These are crazy light but pricey:
https://rovalcomponents.com/collections/mountain-wheels/products/control-sl-29-2017
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DrSpoke

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Reply with quote  #6 
^ These are mtn bike wheels.  They have 142mm axles and a SRAM XD hub.  You would have to convert the freehub to Shimano 11-sp road if possible and change out the end caps if possible.  I've done this w/DT Swiss wheels but not sure about Specialized.
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DrSpoke

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Reply with quote  #7 
The 2015 Specialized Diverge Pro came w/carbon wheels so I'd start there:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/diverge-pro/p/106646

Other options could be any Specialized Roval SCS wheel though most I would assume are road wheels so likely a bit on the narrow side and not sure about tubeless compatibility.  And many have quick release axles and not thru axles.  And, as noted previously, make sure the front wheel fits your bike too.

I suggest you read all the above articles to become familiar with the issues.  That is, educate yourself as there is a lot of misinformation out there.  The RoadBikeReview thread is quite good as it suggests a few workaround as well as a couple of hub manufacturers.

Good luck.



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DrSpoke

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Reply with quote  #8 
https://nextcycling.com/blogs/news/scs-faq-read-this-first-then-just-email-me-i-guess
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clarksonxc

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSpoke
^ These are mtn bike wheels.  They have 142mm axles and a SRAM XD hub.  You would have to convert the freehub to Shimano 11-sp road if possible and change out the end caps if possible.  I've done this w/DT Swiss wheels but not sure about Specialized.


The Traverse wheels I have on my AWOL were from Roavl's mtn line as well.  The internals are DT Swiss, so they were able to convert them to QR front and read and also add an 11sp freehub body.  The QR endcaps were included for free but the freehub was an extra cost.  I guess I could sell the XD driver that's just been sitting in the parts bin though....
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DrSpoke

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Reply with quote  #10 
I've done the same thing several times - converting DT Swiss XR1501s for gravel use.  But that was a few years ago when there were very few options available for gravel wheelsets w/disc and an 11-sp road freehub.  Now there are a lot more options.

The problem w/the Roval conversion isn't the freehub conversion but is the SCS hub.  That is, the mtn bike Rovals will not convert to SCS - mtn bikes are 135mm OLD and SCS is 130mm OLD.

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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSpoke

The problem w/the Roval conversion isn't the freehub conversion but is the SCS hub.  That is, the mtn bike Rovals will not convert to SCS - mtn bikes are 135mm OLD and SCS is 130mm OLD.

Doctor...
I have a couple sets of 10spd Roval wheels I'd love to be able to convert to 11spd by replacing the freehub body.  Unfortunately the local Specialized dealer isn't much help... 

Can you advise me on how I can determine the manufacturer and model of the hubs?   If nothing else, it would be nice to know the model so I can get a replacement freehub body once this one wears out.

Thanks,
Greg

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rockymountainhigh

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Reply with quote  #12 

Thanks for the help everyone! 

What are some good places to look for used wheelsets?

The older roval carbon wheels that came spec'd on some of the crux and diverge bikes might be nice...since my bike is a 2015 I might find someone letting a pair go for cheaper than what new ones cost (which is way more than I want or need to spend now to drop 1 to 1.5 lbs). 

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DrSpoke

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg

Doctor...
I have a couple sets of 10spd Roval wheels I'd love to be able to convert to 11spd by replacing the freehub body.  Unfortunately the local Specialized dealer isn't much help... 

Can you advise me on how I can determine the manufacturer and model of the hubs?   If nothing else, it would be nice to know the model so I can get a replacement freehub body once this one wears out.

Thanks,
Greg



Hi Greg -

I'm not sure if I can be of much help.  My knowledge base is rather dated and probably not that complete to begin with.  I had two friends, both Spec fan boys, buy Diverges in 2015.  Both are not so mechanically minded so I usually offer to help.  After the first guy purchased his was when we started figuring out what those three little letters - "SCS" - meant on the spec sheet.  After a bit of research, we realized that normal aftermarket wheels would not be interchangeable.  And both wanted a 2nd set, mostly for road use, as both had sold their Tarmacs.  The 2nd guy had bought the Pro which came w/carbon rims so he just bought a set of aluminum rims and was happy.  The 1st guy had the alu rims and had a bunch of flats - so much so he got extremely frustrated.  But I think it was mostly w/tubed tires.  And by the time he decided to buy a 2nd set of wheels, Specialized had gone to the 12mm front axle - so he had a rear wheel that fit but not the front.  And the axles were not convertible to 15mm.  That only added to his frustration.  Just this Spring he traded it in on a Warbird - probably his first non-Spec bike ever - and has been happy.

Of course, none of this answers your question.  But it's the long version of "I'm not sure."  Without doing any research, I know many manufacturers use DT Swiss internals on their hubs.  Some I will assume are just rebranded.  And I think this is the case w/Specialized.  So I would check that first.  DT Swiss makes 2 types of freehubs.  The low end hubs use a traditional (historical) pawl hub - in this case 3 pawls.  Their high end hubs use a ratcheting system.  The freehubs usually just pop right off the hub so it's easy to check - use Youtube if you're not sure.  The ratcheting system is unique to DT Swiss.  So if you have a ratcheting freehub I think it would be safe to assume it's DT Swiss.  Accordingly, I would assume you can replace yours with a DT Swiss freehub.  And when converting from 10-sp to 11-sp you will also need a new drive side end cap.  Both are readily available on eBay.

The other factor is axles.  Some of the older hubs did not use end caps and so can't be converted to different thru axle diameters.  I can imagine that some could use DT Swiss freehub internals but not DT Swiss axles.  I say this as I don't think my friends could change their Specialized SCS wheels from 12mm to 15mm.

I've also emailed DT Swiss directly w/questions and they have been very quick to respond.  So you may want to contact them and especially if you can determine if your hub uses DT Swiss internals.

Another option is to use an 11-sp mountain bike cassette.  These, of course, run big (more teeth, lower gears, than the road cassettes.  These mount on the old 10-sp freehubs and have the same cog spacing as the 11-sp road cassettes.  They are able to do this as the inner cogs are large enough that they can move them inward w/o interference w/the spokes.

If you can get the freehub off, post some photos.  And let me know if you have any more questions.
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DrSpoke

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockymountainhigh

Thanks for the help everyone! 

What are some good places to look for used wheelsets?

The older roval carbon wheels that came spec'd on some of the crux and diverge bikes might be nice...since my bike is a 2015 I might find someone letting a pair go for cheaper than what new ones cost (which is way more than I want or need to spend now to drop 1 to 1.5 lbs). 



I agree re the cost to lose a lb or so.  With SCS, you don't have many options.  Personally, for off-road, I don't worry about weight so much.  Road is a different story.  But there are many that want a light weight gravel bike too and I can't really disagree.

eBay would be, of course, the main source.  I looked the other day though after seeing this thread and there wasn't much available.

A 2nd choice is Pinkbikes.com - they have a pretty robust "BuySell" classified section.  https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/ 

Finally, if interested, I can check w/my two buddies to see if they have anything available.  Both have now purchased Tarmacs and so a road set of wheels isn't as necessary.  And one has sold his Diverge but not sure if he still has the 2nd set.

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rockymountainhigh

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Reply with quote  #15 

DrSpoke

If you wanted to check with your friends to see what they had that would be great! 

Obviously I am not looking to break the bank but I could maybe go up to like 600$ or something. Might work if someone has something just sitting around they are not using. 

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DrSpoke

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockymountainhigh

DrSpoke

If you wanted to check with your friends to see what they had that would be great! 

Obviously I am not looking to break the bank but I could maybe go up to like 600$ or something. Might work if someone has something just sitting around they are not using. 



I just sent an email - will let you know what I hear.  If anything come up I will assume that it's the alu set which is much less than $600.  There was no middle ground with these wheels - the carbon sets are very expensive and the alu sets were very inexpensive.
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rockymountainhigh

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Reply with quote  #17 

DrSpoke

I get it. Maybe one of them has something laying around collecting dust or something. Where I live in Colorado it happens all the time. 

But I get the $ difference between carbon and alu. Hence the reason I want to try to find something used! 

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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #18 
For used stuff, I'll search Craigslist and in Colorado there's a Facebook Front Range Marketplace.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/frontrangebikeswap/?ref=nf_target&fref=nf

A lot of folks will post WTB ad's to the marketplace and Craigslist, so in addition to searching for the wheels definitely consider placing a WTB.

If you haven't used Craigslist much, there are ways to use wildcards to build very specific searches.  For example this will search for Kuwahara or Yokota bikes but not BMX or Road:

Kuwahara|Yokota -BMX|Road

While Craigslist is trying to fight this, there are search engines to search Craigslist for large regions.  Here are a couple I've used in the past:
http://www.dailylister.com/
https://www.searchtempest.com/
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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #19 
I have a good buddy with that exact bike.  There are v. limited choices...and he finally threw in towel and got a custom set built up with the Hope SCS r. hub using Light-Bicycle rims.  I actually don't think Specy even makes an SCS wheelset compatible with that bike anymore...get that hub!
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rockymountainhigh

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Reply with quote  #20 

TiGeo

I actually might do the exact same thing. I talked to a local wheel builder and he recommended a Light Bicycle rim setup. 

I am in talks with LB right now to see if it is cheaper to get rims and have the builder do it or have LB do it all. 

Reviews online for LB stuff seem pretty good for what they are. I think they would suit me just fine. 

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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #21 
Listen...I f'ing love my LB gravel wheels - I have 2 sets.  Went with the RG922s 28h on my gravel bike.  Very nice.  Wide at 22mm internal and used the hooked design as they offer more flexibility for higher pressures.  Durable so far.  Total cost all-in is going to be about a grand for a custom build.  The issue will likely be that LB won't have that SCS hub...if they do it will probably be cheaper to use them to build them but why not toss it to your local guy?  Our local shop actually does group orders through LB to cut the price of shipping down a bit.
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rockymountainhigh

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Reply with quote  #22 

TiGeo

Ya I am waiting to hear from LB. 

What I may do to save money is just get rims and have my guy switch over my hubs that were stock on the bike to the new rims and then save more money for the Hope hubs etc. 

I have a feeling I will be close to a grand with the Hope hubs and I kind of want to be around 600 realistically. 

The 250$ or so price tag per rim is ridiculous though. I think my builder would charge me like 100$ to switch things over. 

I am trying to have LB get me a weight for the whole wheelset with the Hope hubs so I can see how they compare to my Alu setup now. 

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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #23 
Here are mine...there new stealth graphics are nice!

CruX.jpg 

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rockymountainhigh

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Reply with quote  #24 
LB did say they had the SCS Hope hubs. They were confused about the front hub but the rear hub they linked for me I assume is the correct one. I don't know enough about all this to be 100% sure though although I am sure if I got something and it didn't work they would work with me to get something that did or just sell me the rims and refund the rest. 
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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockymountainhigh

TiGeo

Ya I am waiting to hear from LB. 

What I may do to save money is just get rims and have my guy switch over my hubs that were stock on the bike to the new rims and then save more money for the Hope hubs etc. 

I have a feeling I will be close to a grand with the Hope hubs and I kind of want to be around 600 realistically. 

The 250$ or so price tag per rim is ridiculous though. I think my builder would charge me like 100$ to switch things over. 

I am trying to have LB get me a weight for the whole wheelset with the Hope hubs so I can see how they compare to my Alu setup now. 



Not a bad way to go, those Axis 4 hubs are fine.  Mine were 24 spoke rear I think which I didn't care for...wanted 28.  I had a set of those wheels on my CruX and no issues beyond the rims were somewhat soft/easy to dent...not very stiff.  My complete wheelset with DT350s was around 1650g I want to say...nothing super light but that wasn't the point of what I was doing.  Keep in mind that yes, $265/rim is not cheap compared to aluminum rims but my opinion is that carbon rides so much better and is much more durable it's worth it.  You won't save a lot of weight vs. a nice aluminum setup.
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