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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #1 
I know there has been discussion on this topic on another thread, have read it and it is exactly what I have read on other websites but very little in what can be done for the issue I ran into.

I got the non-scs derailleur hanger for a 2015 Specialized Crux Evo Elite that I wanted to upgrade wheels on. It still has the stock Axis 2.0 SCS with 130mm hubs. It is a QR dropout so according to website info I should be able to use regular 135mm hubs after replacing the scs hanger with the non-scs. I did so and the rear wheel sits on the dropouts no problem but my wheel is now off-centered on the frame so much that the brake rotor actually rubs the frame. It rubs on the actual caliper mount. It is a post mount.

It looks to me like placing a spacer on the non-drive side, maybe 2mm will give the rotor clearance and center the wheel. I also have read that the wheel can be redished. I have no experience with either and not sure which fix is best. The bike is awesome and deserves to have a better set of wheels than what it came with.

Please help me, 🙏🤷🏽‍♀️😂








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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #2 
This is a QR model, not thru-axle? What new hub did you put on the bike?
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Konass

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Reply with quote  #3 
Something doesn't sound right. Re-dishing the wheel isn't going to do anything for the rotor that is rubbing on the post mounts. 
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
This is a QR model, not thru-axle? What new hub did you put on the bike?


Yes QR, not TA.
Hub is DT Swiss 240 6bolt laced to Stans Grail.
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #5 
Something doesn't sound right. Re-dishing the wheel isn't going to do anything for the rotor that is rubbing on the post mounts. [/QUOTE

Is redishing it not going to move the hub over in either direction needed? So if it does and the hub moves off center, so does the rotor right?
I don’t know that I would want hub moved off-centered by a lot but maybe 2 to 3mm is not a lot?
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #6 
Something's wrong here - the spacing to the disc rotor is a standard distance that has nothing to do with hub width.

Did you buy this bike new? Is the old wheel correctly dished?

Is the new wheel hitting the frame on the left or right side? Was the DT hub purchased new?

Is the old wheel really 130mm?
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
Something's wrong here - the spacing to the disc rotor is a standard distance that has nothing to do with hub width.

Did you buy this bike new? Is the old wheel correctly dished?

Is the new wheel hitting the frame on the left or right side? Was the DT hub purchased new?

Is the old wheel really 130mm?


Bike was purchased new but that was 2 yrs ago. Did not get used regularly until this year.
Old wheel never gave me a problem.
New wheel sits off-centered towards the non-drive side.
Old wheel is really a 130mm, and new hub and wheel were bought new.
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Konass

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Reply with quote  #8 
Redishing moves the rim in relation to the hub, and will move the rim in relation to the frame. But redishing will do nothing to move the rotor. It is in a fixed position on the hub. The fact that is it hitting the frame seems like it is either the wrong size hub or the wrong endcaps, or something with the dropouts. A picture of this would probably help. 
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clarksonxc

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Reply with quote  #9 
From everything I've read on that SCS hub, there were only a couple manufacturers who made them.  Specialized/Roval being one, and I think Hope was the other one.   I really hope you're not up a creek on this one, but I really doubt that 240 hub is ever gonna fit in an SCS spaced frame.  I am confident that DT Swiss doesn't make a disc brake hub with 130mm spacing, only 135/142mm. 
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konass
Redishing moves the rim in relation to the hub, and will move the rim in relation to the frame. But redishing will do nothing to move the rotor. It is in a fixed position on the hub. The fact that is it hitting the frame seems like it is either the wrong size hub or the wrong endcaps, or something with the dropouts. A picture of this would probably help. 


I see. Will post a pic tonight. Also will post a snapshot of the comments on different blogs I read where redishing was brought up. Thanks much for replies.
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clarksonxc
From everything I've read on that SCS hub, there were only a couple manufacturers who made them.  Specialized/Roval being one, and I think Hope was the other one.   I really hope you're not up a creek on this one, but I really doubt that 240 hub is ever gonna fit in an SCS spaced frame.  I am confident that DT Swiss doesn't make a disc brake hub with 130mm spacing, only 135/142mm. 


A 2015 Crux frame with QR dropouts is supposed to be spaced for use with regular 135mm hubs. According to what I have read, only the 2016 and maybe 2017 thru axle frames were spaced for 130mm hubs only. Let me find and paste with this info or link to this info.

As I understand it, for my QR frame, all I had to do to be able to use 135mm hub-ed wheels, was replace the rear derr hanger.
For a thru axle frame there is more to it than that.
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clarksonxc
From everything I've read on that SCS hub, there were only a couple manufacturers who made them.  Specialized/Roval being one, and I think Hope was the other one.   I really hope you're not up a creek on this one, but I really doubt that 240 hub is ever gonna fit in an SCS spaced frame.  I am confident that DT Swiss doesn't make a disc brake hub with 130mm spacing, only 135/142mm. 
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Konass
Redishing moves the rim in relation to the hub, and will move the rim in relation to the frame. But redishing will do nothing to move the rotor. It is in a fixed position on the hub. The fact that is it hitting the frame seems like it is either the wrong size hub or the wrong endcaps, or something with the dropouts. A picture of this would probably help. 
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #14 
The SCS rear QR hub is supposed to be 135 spaced, with the drive-side flange and cassette moved 2.5mm inwards to match the chainline of a 130mm road hub:

[image] 
You can see the disc mount remains in the same place. The special SCS hanger just moves the rear derailleur in 2.5mm to track the cassette but doesn't change the hub spacing.

The spacing from the disc mount to the end cap should be constant across all hub widths - that's why the disc mount floats out about an inch on wide tandem hubs:

[PHO_H540KUQSR++S+1732S_WEB_THO_001] 

So if your hub is making the disc hit the brake mount, there's two possibilities:

1) the end cap of the hub is wrong, but this should change the overall hub spacing.
2) the disc mount is too far inwards/crooked. This could happen on a welded bike, but this model is carbon and you would expect it to come out of the mold correctly aligned (unless the mount is bonded later)

If your correctly dished rear wheel is hitting the NDS chainstay, there's only one possibility: something's wrong with the frame.

If your rotor and rear wheel hit the NDS side of the frame, there's only one possibility: wrong end cap/missing space after the wheel was dished. But the wheel would be out of dish and your hub would be narrower.

Then the mystery of the 130 hub when it should be 135...

This is all too weird to diagnose over the internet, so let's move on: sure, you can throw a spacer on the left side and redish the wheel and as long as you can make everything fits, the bike should be fine. The only question is if you can put enough spacers in there and still get the hub to fit. 

Also if you need 1mm of clearance at the rotor you can add a 1mm spacer, but to get 1mm extra at the tire you'll need 2mm of spacers.

Though here's another question: is there a recess on the inside of the left dropout that the axle fits into?
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
The SCS rear QR hub is supposed to be 135 spaced, with the drive-side flange and cassette moved 2.5mm inwards to match the chainline of a 130mm road hub:

[image] 
You can see the disc mount remains in the same place. The special SCS hanger just moves the rear derailleur in 2.5mm to track the cassette but doesn't change the hub spacing.

The spacing from the disc mount to the end cap should be constant across all hub widths - that's why the disc mount floats out about an inch on wide tandem hubs:

[PHO_H540KUQSR++S+1732S_WEB_THO_001] 

So if your hub is making the disc hit the brake mount, there's two possibilities:

1) the end cap of the hub is wrong, but this should change the overall hub spacing.
2) the disc mount is too far inwards/crooked. This could happen on a welded bike, but this model is carbon and you would expect it to come out of the mold correctly aligned (unless the mount is bonded later)

If your correctly dished rear wheel is hitting the NDS chainstay, there's only one possibility: something's wrong with the frame.

If your rotor and rear wheel hit the NDS side of the frame, there's only one possibility: wrong end cap/missing space after the wheel was dished. But the wheel would be out of dish and your hub would be narrower.

Then the mystery of the 130 hub when it should be 135...

This is all too weird to diagnose over the internet, so let's move on: sure, you can throw a spacer on the left side and redish the wheel and as long as you can make everything fits, the bike should be fine. The only question is if you can put enough spacers in there and still get the hub to fit. 

Also if you need 1mm of clearance at the rotor you can add a 1mm spacer, but to get 1mm extra at the tire you'll need 2mm of spacers.

Though here's another question: is there a recess on the inside of the left dropout that the axle fits into?


Thanks!! Makes sense now.
Will go with spacers after checking the end caps, and maybe trying a different wheel as well.
👍🏽
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
The SCS rear QR hub is supposed to be 135 spaced, with the drive-side flange and cassette moved 2.5mm inwards to match the chainline of a 130mm road hub:

[image] 
You can see the disc mount remains in the same place. The special SCS hanger just moves the rear derailleur in 2.5mm to track the cassette but doesn't change the hub spacing.

The spacing from the disc mount to the end cap should be constant across all hub widths - that's why the disc mount floats out about an inch on wide tandem hubs:

[PHO_H540KUQSR++S+1732S_WEB_THO_001] 

So if your hub is making the disc hit the brake mount, there's two possibilities:

1) the end cap of the hub is wrong, but this should change the overall hub spacing.
2) the disc mount is too far inwards/crooked. This could happen on a welded bike, but this model is carbon and you would expect it to come out of the mold correctly aligned (unless the mount is bonded later)

If your correctly dished rear wheel is hitting the NDS chainstay, there's only one possibility: something's wrong with the frame.

If your rotor and rear wheel hit the NDS side of the frame, there's only one possibility: wrong end cap/missing space after the wheel was dished. But the wheel would be out of dish and your hub would be narrower.

Then the mystery of the 130 hub when it should be 135...

This is all too weird to diagnose over the internet, so let's move on: sure, you can throw a spacer on the left side and redish the wheel and as long as you can make everything fits, the bike should be fine. The only question is if you can put enough spacers in there and still get the hub to fit. 

Also if you need 1mm of clearance at the rotor you can add a 1mm spacer, but to get 1mm extra at the tire you'll need 2mm of spacers.

Though here's another question: is there a recess on the inside of the left dropout that the axle fits into?


https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.net/150392/4118573/EADF54D0-7A0C-4766-8FAF-528461F2DCFC.png

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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #17 
From the screenshot above of this article:

Quote:
Quick release SCS bikes are 135mm disc bikes. Plain and simple. Basically just a quick release mountain bike. 135mm spacing to make room for the disc brake. Quick release so the wheel centers fine. They are regular old bikes, NOT SCS AT ALL!!!! That is the "ah hah!" moment here, if there is one, that I hope you take away. These quick release (rear) bikes are SCS only in that Specialized put a 130mm disc road hub on them, with a funky SCS hanger to make it all work! All SPECIALIZED ALUMINUM ALLOY FRAMES are QUICK RELEASE and therefore NOT REALLY SCS. They just have some SCS bits bolted to them (hanger, wheels).


I read that too but it doesn't make any sense.

First it contradicts the Specialized tech sheet I posted above, which is weird because I got it from that same blog post. And it clearly shows a 135 SCS QR hub and dogleg hanger.

Second, if the hub was 130 and the hanger worked as an adaptor, it would have to make up the 5mm difference on the drive side, which would result in a 130mm hub being shifted over 2.5mm more inboard than it needs to be, and the wheel would have to be dished offset 2.5mm to the drive side which is the direction you don't want to offset to since it makes the tension imbalance even worse.

Having a spacer only on the drive side also wouldn't change the rotor spacing. And removing a spacer on the drive side shouldn't make your hub and wheel shift to the NDS side.

It's all super weird, nothing adds up.

I'd also check the frame alignment using the "string test". Maybe it's totally out of spec and you can get it warrantied for a new non-SCS frame.
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #18 
Yes it does not make any sense. I will just take it to the shop this coming week and update if we figure anything out.

Appreciate all your knowledge sharing👍🏽
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DrSpoke

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Reply with quote  #19 
I'm not sure if I can add anything new to this.  And will likely only add to the confusion.

I looked at this closely a couple of years ago (ok, 3 - 2015) when a couple of friends bought the then new Specialized Diverge with SCS hubs and thru-axles.  I was trying to help them w/additional wheel options.  Who knew back then what a mess those three little letter - SCS - stood for in the spec sheet.  But we found out soon enough.

The SCS stands for Short Chain Stays.  As chainstays get shorter and/or dropout spacing gets wider, it's more likely to get chain rub at the chainrings in certain gear combinations - small/small.  Specialized wanted to run short chain stays similar to their road bikes.  But, as I understand it, Shimano would not allow their products to be used with the chain stay length that Specialized wanted in conjunction with 135mm dropouts.  So Specialized had a choice to either lengthen the chainstays or stick with the 130mm spacing.  Rather than run longer chainstays and use the standard 135/142mm dropout spacing Specialized decided to stick w/the standard road spacing.  That is, they chose the latter option.  But, in order to fit a disc brake mount, they had to move the non-drive side flange inward.  Not the most brilliant move, in my opinion, as most are trying to get wider flange spacing and not narrower.

They further confused the situation by the use of "135mm" spacing.  This is ambiguous as it is not the 135mm spacing used on mountain bikes and most other disc brake road, gravel and cross bikes.  In reality, it's basically a 130mm road hub that has 2.5mm added on to each end of the axle that fit into recesses on each side of the dropouts.  This is similar to 142mm hubs which are basically 135mm hubs w/3.5mm added to each end. 

The diagram posted above, Compatibility Guide, is, in my opinion, is consistent w/this ambiguity.  The lines shown on the SCS hub should in reality be spaced at 130mm rather than 135mm.  If looked at in this way, it's obviously just a road hub with 2.5mm added at each end and a disc mount sqeezed in.

In my opinion, the stock configuration works ok.  In general, I think Specialized has great R&D though I disagree w/this choice.  The problem, as you know, is when you try to buy or build wheels.  One of my friends got the Pro model w/carbon rims so he just purchases a 2nd set of aluminum wheels from Specialized and was happy.  My other friends also went that route.  But by the time he ordered them, Specialized had gone to a 12mm front axle.  So w/the new wheelset, the rear wheel fit but the front didn't.  So he was back to where he started.  BTW, he's since moved to a Salsa Warbird and loves it.

More information - realizing that most of this relates to a Diverge/thru-axle and not the Cruz/QR.  But hope there is some useful information included: 

https://bikerumor.com/2012/11/28/tech-breakdown-how-135mm-rear-hub-spacing-affects-road-bike-chainline-shifting/

https://bikerumor.com/2015/10/19/2016-specialized-crux-cyclocross-roubaix-endurance-road-bikes-gain-thru-axles-but-theyre-weird/

https://bikerumor.com/2015/10/20/2016-specialized-scs-135mm-disc-brake-thru-axle-design-explanation-development-story/

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/specialized/scs-wtf-345626.html

https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycling/961822-specialized-diverge-2015-a.html

https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f40/specialized-diverge-thru-axle-type-38852.html
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrSpoke
I'm not sure if I can add anything new to this.  And will likely only add to the confusion.

...

The diagram posted above, Compatibility Guide, is, in my opinion, is consistent w/this ambiguity.  The lines shown on the SCS hub should in reality be spaced at 130mm rather than 135mm. 


That's a very good synopsis of the thru-axle situation, but the OP has a QR bike. The diagram above is for the QR hubs which you can confirm by the derailleur hanger.

But that even well-written explanations make the whole situation more confusing shows just how bad Specialized screwed up with this "standard".
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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby


That's a very good synopsis of the thru-axle situation, but the OP has a QR bike. The diagram above is for the QR hubs which you can confirm by the derailleur hanger.

But that even well-written explanations make the whole situation more confusing shows just how bad Specialized screwed up with this "standard".


That they did.
If I had known before buying it I wouldn’t have. Just because wheels is the one thing I invest in upgrading. Now that I already have it and I already love it so now that I do have time to ride it, I will have to make it work.




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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #22 
But, in order to fit a disc brake mount, they had to move the non-drive side flange inward.

Quoted the above from previous reply.
So the nds flange moved in and took with it the rotor on the scs hub, while on my new wheel that flange is at a standard position. Making my rotor rub. Just want to understand exactly in case my shop needs more info. Idk how familiar shops are with this SCS BS, what a coincidence that they rhyme😬😂
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraguil

So the nds flange moved in and took with it the rotor on the scs hub, while on my new wheel that flange is at a standard position.


Sort of - on the thru-axle hub the rotor is 2.5mm further inboard from the end of the axle to set it to 130mm disc spacing, but the end of the axle is recessed 2.5mm into the frame. So the rotor should be in the same place relative to the dropout.

So then the question is - does your QR frame also have a 2.5mm recess the hub fits into on the inside of the dropout even though it's not through axle? Let's assume Specialized used the same 135 hub shell and spacing on the QR and TA hubs (which means the above diagram is wrong). Because then in that case a new 135 hub would have the disc 2.5mm too far to the left. Which seems to explain the disc interference. But it doesn't explain why the wheel is also hitting the frame. But if there is a recess on the left side maybe the new endcaps don't fit the same which is making the wheel sit crooked?

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Eraguil

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby


Sort of - on the thru-axle hub the rotor is 2.5mm further inboard from the end of the axle to set it to 130mm disc spacing, but the end of the axle is recessed 2.5mm into the frame. So the rotor should be in the same place relative to the dropout.

So then the question is - does your QR frame also have a 2.5mm recess the hub fits into on the inside of the dropout even though it's not through axle? Let's assume Specialized used the same 135 hub shell and spacing on the QR and TA hubs (which means the above diagram is wrong). Because then in that case a new 135 hub would have the disc 2.5mm too far to the left. Which seems to explain the disc interference. But it doesn't explain why the wheel is also hitting the frame. But if there is a recess on the left side maybe the new endcaps don't fit the same which is making the wheel sit crooked?





Trying to upload photo. I put the old derr hanger and old wheel back for now. You can see there is no recess in the dropout. The new wheel’s rotor rubs the caliper mount on frame where indicafed in lic but the rest of the wheel does not touch the frame, it is just grossly off-centered.

https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.net/150392/4124788/C7C9FDAC-F388-4DAE-8513-6BCED216148C.jpeg
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #25 
What's the distance from the outside face of the rotor to the end cap?
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