The Riding Gravel Forum
Sign up Calendar Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment  
NoCoGreg

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 311
Reply with quote  #1 
This is a problem I encountered on my new Roker Sport, but in searching the Web it seems to happen with other bikes as well.

The basic issue is this series of Shimano's front derailleurs didn't anticipate the cable routing of the Roker which happens to be similar to a number of other bikes.

In short, if one uses the cable routing instructions in Shimano's Dealer Manual (see link below) it is impossible to adjust the derailleur to not rub either the high setting (big ring, small cassette cog) or low setting (small ring, large cog).
http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-FD0002-05-ENG.pdf

Root cause is the Roker's cable routing in the center of the bottom bracket shell (read: no left nor right offset).  This cable routing makes it impossible to get the correct leverage resulting in too little cable pull. 

The setup which works is:
  - "Converter in On Position" see screenshot from the manual.
  - Route cable to the right of the Converter Pin and secure on the right side of the cable attach bolt.

I'm attaching 3 images which hopefully will help.

Final note - This generation of FD's require A LOT of cable tension for proper operation.  Definitely recommend reading the above mentioned FD manual.  I inserted a 6mm cable into the derailleur to hold the cage in the proper position when setting the tension.
Shimano FD Converter Setup.jpg  Tiagra Front Derailleur Setup2.jpg  Tiagra Front Derailleur Setup1.jpg 


0
jjbnum3

Member
Registered:
Posts: 53
Reply with quote  #2 
Thanks for the write up on the FD of the Roker. I'll have to read more about it latter today.
It is late here.But you are saying the Roker Sport has the correct setting but does not work the best?

0
NoCoGreg

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 311
Reply with quote  #3 
JJ, Yes that's correct...  BUT according to the Shimano manual the Roker should be fine with the converter on or off but that simply was not the case with my bike & derailleur.

I still need to do some more tweaking as the FD still rubs some when I'm on the big chainring and either of the two largest cassette cogs.  Per Shimano I should be able to cross-chain without any rubbing if the "high trim" is set properly. I thot I had this fixed.  Ugh!  On the positive side, I have a used 10spd SRAM Red setup which may find it's way onto the Roker if I can't sort this out soon.

One additional note - the Tiagra 4700 shifters/derailleurs are incompatible with all prior 10spd shifter/derailleurs.  I'm speculating the 4700 derailleurs have the same cable pull as the 11spd Dura-ace/Ultegra/105 derailleurs which is different from the 10spd versions.

0
Zurichman

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,019
Reply with quote  #4 
So did you get this fixed NoCoGreg?

Zman

__________________
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
0
NoCoGreg

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 311
Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurichman
So did you get this fixed NoCoGreg?

Zman

Unfortunately not yet...  I've been working with the Raleigh folks. They gave me some ideas but so far they haven't worked.  I'm taking the bike back to a LBS which looked at it once before.  If he can't get it working this time the Raleigh folks want him to contact them directly.  I've got my fingers crossed...

BTW - the 10spd 11-34 cassette with a 50/34 crankset is IMHO very wide gearing and has some large jumps for my preference.  If this were an 11spd it would probably be perfect. Hmmmmm...  :-)

0
Zurichman

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,019
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg

Unfortunately not yet...  I've been working with the Raleigh folks. They gave me some ideas but so far they haven't worked.  I'm taking the bike back to a LBS which looked at it once before.  If he can't get it working this time the Raleigh folks want him to contact them directly.  I've got my fingers crossed...

BTW - the 10spd 11-34 cassette with a 50/34 crankset is IMHO very wide gearing and has some large jumps for my preference.  If this were an 11spd it would probably be perfect. Hmmmmm...  :-)



Shows you how much I know about the components on my bike. I actually thought my bike(Tamland 1)was a 11 speed until I went out and counted it. I did talk a few times with Leif at Raleigh about doing some warranty work on this bike because the intergrated seat post collar was scratched up but never took them up on it. My bike was also to be spec with the 46/34 gearing but came thru with the 50/34 instead. I am still trying to learn all this. I thought the 50 would give me a higher high speed/ Do you like the 46/34 instead and since I already have the 50/34 Shimano crank I could just replace it with a 46 if I decide to do the conversion. My rear was also changed out to 11x36 Sram with the road link' 

Another thing that is going thru the back of my mind. My Tamland with the Sram 11x36 isn't working as well as I would like. I get what I guess you call chain slap in the high 2-3 gears when I stop pedaling real quick. That is I guess a bad habit for me to break as I have always ridden like that even on my road bikes. I would hate to spend all that money on the Roker and still have it do that. I do have the stock 11x34 yet that I never rode much because of the Tamland being in my mind heavy and tuff for me to climb my local mt. If I did get in shape the Roker probably would climb well enough with the 11x34 without putting the 11x36 on it with the road link. Decisions/decisions

Thanks
Zman

__________________
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
0
jjbnum3

Member
Registered:
Posts: 53
Reply with quote  #7 
NoCoGreg did you get the 2016 Red sport Roker?Looks like you went from 46 to 50 in the big ring?Or did it come with the 50?
I like red over mostly  black(2017).

Quote:

Shows you how much I know about the components on my bike. I actually thought my bike(Tamland 1)was a 11 speed until I went out and counted it. I did talk a few times with Leif at Raleigh about doing some warranty work on this bike because the intergrated seat post collar was scratched up but never took them up on it. My bike was also to be spec with the 46/34 gearing but came thru with the 50/34 instead. I am still trying to learn all this. I thought the 50 would give me a higher high speed/ Do you like the 46/34 instead and since I already have the 50/34 Shimano crank I could just replace it with a 46 if I decide to do the conversion. My rear was also changed out to 11x36 Sram with the road link'


I thought both 2016/2017 Tamland 1 came with 11 speed 105.34/46t The cranks are not 105,cost savings.Do you have the green 2017 model?
I'm not to good on knowing the best gearing.But I would want 46t at the most if doing most riding off road with hills.
Maybe someone with more gravel riding can help out.

0
Zurichman

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,019
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjbnum3
NoCoGreg did you get the 2016 Red sport Roker?Looks like you went from 46 to 50 in the big ring?Or did it come with the 50?
I like red over mostly  black(2017).



I thought both 2016/2017 Tamland 1 came with 11 speed 105.34/46t The cranks are not 105,cost savings.Do you have the green 2017 model?
I'm not to good on knowing the best gearing.But I would want 46t at the most if doing most riding off road with hills.
Maybe someone with more gravel riding can help out.



jjbnum3 Yes I have the Black/red 2016 Tamland 1 and although it was to come thru with the 46/34 crank mine came thru with a 50/34. My crank(Gossamer FSA) has been switched out now to a Shimano 105. Yes checked mine once again this morning and it's a 11. I swapped out the stock 11 - 34 Shimano to a 11 - 36 Sram with a road link.

Zman

__________________
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
0
Zurichman

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,019
Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg

Unfortunately not yet...  I've been working with the Raleigh folks. They gave me some ideas but so far they haven't worked.  I'm taking the bike back to a LBS which looked at it once before.  If he can't get it working this time the Raleigh folks want him to contact them directly.  I've got my fingers crossed...

BTW - the 10spd 11-34 cassette with a 50/34 crankset is IMHO very wide gearing and has some large jumps for my preference.  If this were an 11spd it would probably be perfect. Hmmmmm...  :-)



NoCoGreg I looked at my Tamland again this morning and yes it is a 11 speed. So your Sport only came through as a 10 speed then? Good luck in getting you bike fixed. I am beginning to wonder if there is actually standard gearing on these bikes as Raleigh was somewhat surprised that my bike came thru with the 50/34 Gossamer FSA crank and was willing to do something for me when I tacoed the 50 outside front ring at that one ride but I never took them up on it.


Zman

__________________
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
0
NoCoGreg

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 311
Reply with quote  #10 
Zman - yes my Roker Sport's components arrived exactly as the spec called out.  For me the 50/34 crankset is perfect.  If I ever went to something different I'd be looking for a smaller BCD on the crankset to fit a lower first gear, but now that the industry seems to be shifting back to larger cassette sprockets (36 and larger). Thus I don't expect to be replacing chainrings/cranksets anytime soon.  That said, a crankset with a 30t inner chainring does look interesting.  A 46/30 could be mated to an 11/32 11 speed cassette for low gears and relatively close jumps.  

My preference is for a crankset with as large a jump as possible.  With 10 or 11 speed cassettes I don't shift the front much as the rear shifts so much quicker and reliably.  I also try to find a setup such that I'm comfortable in the large chainring for most of my miles as I can use all of the cassette cogs from the large chainring, but if I'm on the small chainring there is one or two sprockets where the chain starts to hit the large chainring.  Besides, I'm a masher and tend to have a low cadence.

To your comment on "standard gearing".  Bike companies usually have an * with a disclaimer that the spec's are "subject to change without notice".  That covers them in case there is an issue with a parts supplier or they identify a problem with a specific component. 

0
Zurichman

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,019
Reply with quote  #11 
NoCoGreg I had to go to the Raleigh site to look up the specs on your Roker Sport. Kind of a mixed bag set up. On one hand it has the 3rd water bottle mount like the Comp but then on the other hand it has 10 speed and tiagra derailleur components while the Tamland has the 105 and 11 speed. I guess maybe we can thank Ted Guitar here for helping Raleigh design the bike with those components. I still have no idea why they gave up on the Roker and lots of their mt. bike designs.

Zman

__________________
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
0
NoCoGreg

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 311
Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurichman
NoCoGreg I had to go to the Raleigh site to look up the specs on your Roker Sport. Kind of a mixed bag set up. On one hand it has the 3rd water bottle mount like the Comp but then on the other hand it has 10 speed and tiagra derailleur components while the Tamland has the 105 and 11 speed. I guess maybe we can thank Ted Guitar here for helping Raleigh design the bike with those components. I still have no idea why they gave up on the Roker and lots of their mt. bike designs.

Zman

Zman - I agree with your assessment of the Roker Sport.  It's an interesting mix of parts.  

Back to my original post, after returning the bike to the LBS which worked on it already, they determined the issue is with the front shifter. Shimano is sending out a warranty replacement.  

I'm sure a 2x10 setup will give plenty of gears but as parts wear out and/or fail I'll be looking at upgrading to a 2x11 setup and other options.  Here's my top list of changes/upgrades:
1. Bar padding - The stock tape is what I'd expect on a Walmart bike.  I'm going to re-tape with a base layer of gel padded tape and something nicer on top.
2. Tubeless - I'll change over once the stock MSO's are worn out so this will take some work. :-)
3. Seatpost - teammates are giving good reviews of the Specialized CG-R post, but with a retail price of $200 this might be an ebay item.

0
jjbnum3

Member
Registered:
Posts: 53
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg
Zman - yes my Poker Sport's components arrived exactly as the spec called out.  For me the 50/34 crankset is perfect.  If I ever went to something different I'd be looking for a smaller BCD on the crankset to fit a lower first gear, but now that the industry seems to be shifting back to larger cassette sprockets (36 and larger). Thus I don't expect to be replacing chainrings/cranksets anytime soon.  That said, a crankset with a 30t inner chainring does look interesting.  A 46/30 could be mated to an 11/32 11 speed cassette for low gears and relatively close jumps.  



I have 46/34(spec) on both my 2017 Roker and 2016 Tamland.

Tamland is also bottom pull shimano ultegra FD and shifts great.Ultegra cranks.I'll have to check latter to see if this is the long arm model.Until today I did not know about the short arm replacing the long arm model.

Roker:Still needs to be repaired.Cranks model?Most bicycle manufacturers go cheaper model CS.

1.Might be A long arm Shimano FD(Is the Tiagra 10sp A long A arm?)
2.bent FD
3.Chain line off or bent chainring.


Looks  to be A Shimano FD problem.
This is A response for same problem on 2017 Specialized  with 105 

Quote:
Since it's a 2017 bike equipped with 105, it should be a 5800 series FD. These "long arm" Shimano FD's are often problematic in getting them setup satisfactorily. Without seeing your bike and getting into a hands-on diagnosis of exactly what is going on an why, I'll just say that those FD's can be such a headache that Shimano has listened and come up with a new FD design for the latest Dura Ace (9100) and Ultegra (R8000) groups. The 'long arm" design was relatively short lived. The latest 105 group is still 5800....except for the FD. Within the 5800 105 group, only the FD has gotten a complete redesign, it is now dubbed FD-5801 and is completely different than FD-5800. It's the same basic design as the 9100 and R8000 FD's mentioned above
.

Also while looking online at bikes,some models that had 105 in 2017.Now have Tiagra 10 speed for 2018.Raleigh,Trek and specialized to name A few.

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/shimano-105-fd-5801-50639/




0
zimdba

Member
Registered:
Posts: 46
Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg

Zman - I agree with your assessment of the Roker Sport.  It's an interesting mix of parts.  

Back to my original post, after returning the bike to the LBS which worked on it already, they determined the issue is with the front shifter. Shimano is sending out a warranty replacement.  

I'm sure a 2x10 setup will give plenty of gears but as parts wear out and/or fail I'll be looking at upgrading to a 2x11 setup and other options.  Here's my top list of changes/upgrades:
1. Bar padding - The stock tape is what I'd expect on a Walmart bike.  I'm going to re-tape with a base layer of gel padded tape and something nicer on top.
2. Tubeless - I'll change over once the stock MSO's are worn out so this will take some work. :-)
3. Seatpost - teammates are giving good reviews of the Specialized CG-R post, but with a retail price of $200 this might be an ebay item.



I went with this for a seatpost.  Very happy with it, and it's on sale for $11 less than I paid for it.

https://www.competitivecyclist.com/fsa-sl-k-carbon-itc-seatpost-sb20-10

I actually like the bar tape!  To each his own.

0
NoCoGreg

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 311
Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjbnum3


I have 46/34(spec) on both my 2017 Roker and 2016 Tamland.

Tamland is also bottom pull shimano ultegra FD and shifts great.Ultegra cranks.I'll have to check latter to see if this is the long arm model.Until today I did not know about the short arm replacing the long arm model.

Roker:Still needs to be repaired.Cranks model?Most bicycle manufacturers go cheaper model CS.

1.Might be A long arm Shimano FD(Is the Tiagra 10sp A long A arm?)
2.bent FD
3.Chain line off or bent chainring.

JJ - For my Roker the LBS even went to the process of throwing on a Shimano 10spd crankset knowing that Shimano would require this before agreeing to warranty the shifter.  The Shimano crankset did move the chain line a bit farther outward but this didn't change the basic problem.

The 4800/5800/6800 (Tiagra, 105, Ultegra) derailleurs all have the same cable pull. They differ in materials and cosmetics.  The 4700 (new) 10spd Tiagra is incompatible with the prior generation 10spd Tiagra/105/Ultegra/Dura-Ace because of the different cable pull.  Since 10spd cassette spacing hasn't changed, the 4700 shifters had to change.  I used to applaud Shimano for having compatibility across road and mountain from 6spd through 9spd generations.  Sadly the 11spd groups (4700 included) eliminated backward compatibility with FD, RD and even brake cable pull.

FWIW, my Tarmac is outfitted with the 6800 11spd Ultegra and front shifting is excellent.  The shop set it up and I haven't had to touch it even after a couple thousand miles.

As for the cranks on the Roker - that's clearly one of the places Raleigh saved some $$$.  I couldn't find a brand and neither could the LBS.  The cranks work and look ok but I'd bet one could save some weight with a replacement. :-) 
0
jjbnum3

Member
Registered:
Posts: 53
Reply with quote  #16 
Wow,that sucks
You need new shifters? I thought it was just the FD.

I just talk to Raleigh and the 2017 Roker sport has  4700,says it  is the newest.
And  eliminated backward compatibility  really not good.
0
NoCoGreg

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 311
Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjbnum3
Wow,that sucks
You need new shifters? I thought it was just the FD.

I just talk to Raleigh and the 2017 Roker sport has  4700,says it  is the newest.
And  eliminated backward compatibility  really not good.


Shimano is sending a new front shifter to the LBS and the bike is supposed to be ready by the end of the week. 

I originally thought it was a FD setup or adjustment issue but some back and forth with the Raleigh folks and a 2nd trip to the LBS we believe the root cause is the shifter.  I've got my fingers crossed this will fix the issue.  

The Raleigh support has been responsive and is working with me, but since they don't have the bike it's more difficult as you could imagine. 
0
NoCoGreg

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 311
Reply with quote  #18 
It took a while, but once the warranty replacement front shifter was installed the front derailleur could be dialed in and it (finally) works as intended.  While I am disappointed that Shimano changed the cable pull between the prior generation 10-spd and the 11-spd and new 10-spd, it is nice to know that if I want to upgrade to a 2x11 system the derailleurs will be compatible (read: I would need new shifters, chain & cassette).

Cheers,
Grefg

0
Zurichman

Avatar / Picture

Senior Member
Registered:
Posts: 1,019
Reply with quote  #19 
NoCoGreg Look at my post on the Roker thread I posted a couple of minutes ago. My Roker rear derailleur hung up on down shifting in the highest 3-4 gears. Raleigh LBS took it apart and the cable was eating away at the end cap where it goes into the frame at the top tube causing it to hang up. This possibly could be some of your problems also. It surprised me at my end that this could happen to the bike after only 3 rides( 32 miles 32 miles and 80 miles at the Dirty Pecan) My LBS also said he hadn't really seen a set up like that before but don't know what that means.

I hope you have yours worked out.


Zman

__________________
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.