Zurichman
I am pretty sure I saw this bike at a gravel bike race yesterday and know nothing about it. I did pick it up and it was light as a feather. I have thoughts of buying myself a really expensive gravel bike 2-3 years from now when I retire. Before I saw this bike these were the 2 bikes on the radar. 

Salsa Warbird carbon
Lynskey GR 260

Thanks
Zman Capture__95196.1522244348.jpg
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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ljsmith
Aside from the price, my main concern is the racy geometry. The head tubes are relatively short for a gravel bike so you need a lot of spacers unless you really like a racy position on the bike and the head tube angle is pretty steep. The bike in your pic has a good amount of spacers and still has a lot of saddle to bar drop. The Lynskey and Salsa both have geometry better suited to those of us who arent professional racers. I can’t deny they are light and nice looking, but there is more to a bike than that.
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s0ldats
the UP and exploro, both designed by vroomen are definitely geared more toward hauling ass on dirt and tarmac alike. not so much long haul gravel riding (although i know a few people who use these bikes for long trips, they are in tip top cycling shape to begin with)

the UP geometry is the more 'gravel friendly' of the two, however when compared to other 'gravel specific' models, it's still quite aggressive.

that said, i love aggressive geometry on and off road and love the UP!


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Zurichman
Thanks for those 2 replies and yes I didn't notice the large amount of saddle to handlebar drop. I didn't know that this bike has aggressive racing geometry so that would be out for me. What other bikes other than say the Jamis Renegade carbon and other carbon bikes could I throw in the mix to do some research on between now and then. The next bike would have to be 2x also not 1x.

Thanks
Zman
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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brando
I ride a Kona Rove ST full steel bike and while I really enjoy riding it and have built it up for long term dependability, at about 26 pounds, I do think I would appreciate dropping 8ish or more pounds when the races come around next year. The Open UP is definitely tempting in this regard and has some cool features like the dropped stay and the slacker seat tube to run a straight post. I also like the Ibis Hakka MX as well as the Donnelly G//C, thr Hakka has T47 BB which is cool and the Donnelly is a frame from a tire company but with some solid design experience behiind it.

I think the Kona Libre looks great for all around use, definitely a higher, more comfortable front end as well as ample clearance and mounts. However for me for this next racing style bike I think I would go closer to something like the Open.

In the mean time I will ride my stalwart steel rig any and everywhere!
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s0ldats
the diamondback haanjo carbon frame comes to mind as something relatively lightweight and not so aggressive.

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HollyBoni
ljsmith wrote:
Aside from the price, my main concern is the racy geometry. The head tubes are relatively short for a gravel bike so you need a lot of spacers unless you really like a racy position on the bike and the head tube angle is pretty steep.


Same here. I don't have a problem with running a bunch of spacers, but can you do that on a carbon steerer?
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HollyBoni
My dream bike would be a Cutthroat, especially if I was older. Blinged out with a not yet existing drop bar Eagle group or a mountain 2x, a few wheelsets and possibly a suspension fork. Nice relaxed geometry do everything bike. 
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brando
HollyBoni wrote:


Same here. I don't have a problem with running a bunch of spacers, but can you do that on a carbon steerer?


Lennard Zinn discussed this last month on Velonews Tech FAQ:

https://www.velonews.com/2018/09/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq-headset-spacer-stack-height_478990

TL;DR: 

You probably can, but it's not a bad idea to install one of these (he does): 

http://www.bigandtallbike.com/Steer-Tube-insert-for-carbon-fork--238mm-Diameter_p_380.html
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HollyBoni

brando wrote:


Lennard Zinn discussed this last month on Velonews Tech FAQ:

https://www.velonews.com/2018/09/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq-headset-spacer-stack-height_478990

TL;DR: 

You probably can, but it's not a bad idea to install one of these (he does): 

http://www.bigandtallbike.com/Steer-Tube-insert-for-carbon-fork--238mm-Diameter_p_380.html


"Finally, the spacer height that can be safely used depends on the type of riding the bike will be subjected to. If the rider pedals it gently on smooth roads, the answer will be different than if he rides it into curbs and big potholes or off of semi-truck loading docks."

I know the second part is a bit over the top on purpose, but still the article looks at things from a road bike perspective. Generally i'm not afraid of carbon stuff at all, but sometimes I use my gravel bike on terrain where i'd be better off on an MTB. I think i'd have a hard time trusting a carbon steerer with a bunch of spacers when bombing down an offroad descend. Or is that paranoid? [biggrin]

 
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ljsmith
HollyBoni wrote:



"Finally, the spacer height that can be safely used depends on the type of riding the bike will be subjected to. If the rider pedals it gently on smooth roads, the answer will be different than if he rides it into curbs and big potholes or off of semi-truck loading docks."

I know the second part is a bit over the top on purpose, but still the article looks at things from a road bike perspective. Generally i'm not afraid of carbon stuff at all, but sometimes I use my gravel bike on terrain where i'd be better off on an MTB. I think i'd have a hard time trusting a carbon steerer with a bunch of spacers when bombing down an offroad descend. Or is that paranoid? [biggrin]

 


Most sources I have read say 30-40mm of spacers is the max for a carbon steerer.  Not only is it dangerous to have too many, but it also shows you chose the wrong frame-its either too small or not the right geometry for your intended use.  I agree with you, I often ride singletrack on my gravel bike, and without a suspension fork the fork takes a lot more abuse than my mountain bike probably.  But a giant stack of spacers also looks horrible.

[753400d1358259952-how-much-too-much-stem-spacers-insanestemstack] 
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ljsmith
Zurichman wrote:
Thanks for those 2 replies and yes I didn't notice the large amount of saddle to handlebar drop. I didn't know that this bike has aggressive racing geometry so that would be out for me. What other bikes other than say the Jamis Renegade carbon and other carbon bikes could I throw in the mix to do some research on between now and then. The next bike would have to be 2x also not 1x.

Thanks
Zman


You have a carbon Roker now right?  If you like it, why not just build it up with light components and wheels.  The Open UP frame is probably only around 200g lighter than your Roker.
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HollyBoni
ljsmith wrote:


Most sources I have read say 30-40mm of spacers is the max for a carbon steerer.  Not only is it dangerous to have too many, but it also shows you chose the wrong frame-its either too small or not the right geometry for your intended use.  I agree with you, I often ride singletrack on my gravel bike, and without a suspension fork the fork takes a lot more abuse than my mountain bike probably.  But a giant stack of spacers also looks horrible.



I currently have 40mm (and a +6 degree stem) on my gravel bike that has a steel steerer. I like an upright position and my neck is not the best. Although I think 40 mil is not that much. 

I see a lot of frames that would be perfect, they tick every box, it's only the damn stack height that's too low.
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Zurichman
ljsmith wrote:


You have a carbon Roker now right?  If you like it, why not just build it up with light components and wheels.  The Open UP frame is probably only around 200g lighter than your Roker.


Thanks for that reply ljsmith. Yes you are right and probably will go that route. My main problem is I don't know enough about bicycle components to know lets say what is a lighter version crank of say the Shimano 2x 105. I am going that route for sure after this weekend. I rode with a 63 year old on flat rails and trails and couldn't find the right gearing in the bottom 4-5 gears as there is just too much jumps in gears for me. Not sure if I will get that done this winter or not.

Zman
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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brando
I have some potential info on the headtube length for the Open: in 2019, it is going UP!

I stopped by my Open dealer today and see if they had a Large for me to demo. Unfortunately they only had a Small and Medium, and might not be getting any more demos until after January, because they have been told there are some changes coming to the bike that they are waiting on. They don't know exactly what ALL of them are, but one change or option they have been told about is a taller head tube.

That said, they did have a Large frameset for sale that did not work for another customer, and the price is very, very good...
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HollyBoni
Great, now I just need the price to go DOWN! 

[biggrin]
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ljsmith
Zurichman wrote:


Thanks for that reply ljsmith. Yes you are right and probably will go that route. My main problem is I don't know enough about bicycle components to know lets say what is a lighter version crank of say the Shimano 2x 105. I am going that route for sure after this weekend. I rode with a 63 year old on flat rails and trails and couldn't find the right gearing in the bottom 4-5 gears as there is just too much jumps in gears for me. Not sure if I will get that done this winter or not.

Zman


With Shimano the levels from low to high are Tiagra, 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace.  At each level the components get lighter.  Ultegra and Dura Ace are of equal quality, but Dura Ace is lighter if you have deep pockets.  But the most important change you can make is wheels.  Light wheels dramatically change the feel of a bike because they accelerate and climb noticeably better.  Most stock bikes come with wheels around 2000g.  If you get a sub 1600g wheelset, you will feel a huge difference.  After components and wheels then you can look at cockpit.  Carbon seatpost can drop around 100g, titanium railed saddle another 50-100g.  Its not hard to make a bike lighter, the real trick is doing it without breaking the bank.  What are your gears right now?  If you are 1x, a 2x setup should solve your problem.
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Zurichman
ljsmith wrote:


With Shimano the levels from low to high are Tiagra, 105, Ultegra and Dura Ace.  At each level the components get lighter.  Ultegra and Dura Ace are of equal quality, but Dura Ace is lighter if you have deep pockets.  But the most important change you can make is wheels.  Light wheels dramatically change the feel of a bike because they accelerate and climb noticeably better.  Most stock bikes come with wheels around 2000g.  If you get a sub 1600g wheelset, you will feel a huge difference.  After components and wheels then you can look at cockpit.  Carbon seatpost can drop around 100g, titanium railed saddle another 50-100g.  Its not hard to make a bike lighter, the real trick is doing it without breaking the bank.  What are your gears right now?  If you are 1x, a 2x setup should solve your problem.


ljsmith I understand the levels of Shimano coming from the roadie end. I have kind of deep pockets but not super deep pockets. So with that being said I will probably never run Dura Ace or the D12 electronics but you can never say never. I did see I think NoCooGreg post once about a weight weenies site. I for sure am going to go 2x but I don't know an after market  mid price lighter crank lets say than either the 105 or Ultegra since I don't know anything other than Shimano or much about bike components. I might post a thread to get some suggestions for a lighter 2x crank than the Ultegra.

Thanks
Zman           
If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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HollyBoni

Zurichman wrote:
I for sure am going to go 2x but I don't know an after market  mid price lighter crank lets say than either the 105 or Ultegra since I don't know anything other than Shimano or much about bike components. I might post a thread to get some suggestions for a lighter 2x crank than the Ultegra.


That's not a problem, just check a webshop that has a good selection and the weights listed. [smile] If you open a thread a few people will do the same.

The Ultegra R8000 crankset is decently light tho, some carbon cranksets are barely lighter or weigh as much.

For example the weight difference between the Dura Ace R9100 and the Ultegra R8000 crankset is 60g (34-50 170mm), while the Dura Ace costs more than double. 

Even though it looks like a big chunk of aluminium in this case i'm not sure if the crankset would be the smartest place to lose some weight. 
I've seen some carbon options that are not that more expensive but they're only around 50g lighter. 

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Zurichman
HollyBoni wrote:



That's not a problem, just check a webshop that has a good selection and the weights listed. [smile] If you open a thread a few people will do the same.

The Ultegra R8000 crankset is decently light tho, some carbon cranksets are barely lighter or weigh as much.

For example the weight difference between the Dura Ace R9100 and the Ultegra R8000 crankset is 60g (34-50 170mm), while the Dura Ace costs more than double. 

Even though it looks like a big chunk of aluminium in this case i'm not sure if the crankset would be the smartest place to lose some weight. 
I've seen some carbon options that are not that more expensive but they're only around 50g lighter. 



Thanks for that reply HollyBoni I have to replace the crank anyways since I would be switching out the Sram 1x Rival to Shimano 2x and thought any weight savings I could get on the crank would help. Any webshops that you could recommend so I could start doing some research. I did see over at GravelCyclist that JOM there took a Raleigh Sport which starting weight was 2 1/2 lbs heavier than my Roker( 22 1/2 versus 20)and got it down to 17 1/2 lbs so maybe that would be worth looking at some of the things he did.


Thanks again
Zman



If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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HollyBoni

Zurichman wrote:
Thanks for that reply HollyBoni I have to replace the crank anyways since I would be switching out the Sram 1x Rival to Shimano 2x and thought any weight savings I could get on the crank would help. Any webshops that you could recommend so I could start doing some research. I did see over at GravelCyclist that JOM there took a Raleigh Sport which starting weight was 2 1/2 lbs heavier than my Roker( 22 1/2 versus 20)and got it down to 17 1/2 lbs so maybe that would be worth looking at some of the things he did.

Thanks again
Zman


I'm in Europe so I don't know the US sites well, I usually use http://bike-components.de but everything is in metric and the prices are in €. 😉 

I'd probably make a list about the weight of the stock components and do some research where you can drop the most weight for the least amount of cash.

I can only confirm tho that dropping weight from the wheels and tyres can really transform a bike. 

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chas
Zurichman wrote:

I did see over at GravelCyclist that JOM there took a Raleigh Sport which starting weight was 2 1/2 lbs heavier than my Roker( 22 1/2 versus 20)and got it down to 17 1/2 lbs so maybe that would be worth looking at some of the things he did.

Thanks again
Zman



That is what I was gonna tell ya.  That would be better for you than getting a UP!  Still, to match that build, you have to source all those titanium bolts, LoL...

Still - that is a good playbook.  I think Raleigh UK had a race version that was around 17-18lbs out of the box.
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chas
I like the aggressive geometry too, and UP was high up on my list - unfortunately high up on the unobtainable section of the list.  

I got a Canyon Inflite which has what I expect are the things I would like about a UP (or exploro).  All of them are way too aggressive for what Zman would want though.    But boy are these bikes agile!  

s0ldats wrote:
the UP and exploro, both designed by vroomen are definitely geared more toward hauling ass on dirt and tarmac alike. not so much long haul gravel riding (although i know a few people who use these bikes for long trips, they are in tip top cycling shape to begin with)

the UP geometry is the more 'gravel friendly' of the two, however when compared to other 'gravel specific' models, it's still quite aggressive.

that said, i love aggressive geometry on and off road and love the UP!



ljsmith wrote:

Not only is it dangerous to have too many, but it also shows you chose the wrong frame-its either too small or not the right geometry for your intended use.

Or that I bought the right frame 25 years ago, but I'm not as limber as I used to be, HaHaHa...


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Gerard Vroomen
ljsmith wrote:
Aside from the price, my main concern is the racy geometry. The head tubes are relatively short for a gravel bike so you need a lot of spacers unless you really like a racy position on the bike and the head tube angle is pretty steep. The bike in your pic has a good amount of spacers and still has a lot of saddle to bar drop. The Lynskey and Salsa both have geometry better suited to those of us who arent professional racers. I can’t deny they are light and nice looking, but there is more to a bike than that.


Mostly sound advice in this thread, but one thing on geometry. It's strange to call the UP aggressive and then recommend the Warbird. The 49cm Warbird has actually a 4mm lower stack  than the Small UP, while the 56cm Warbird has 5mm more stack than the UP, so in both cases they are in the same ballpark. Where there is a difference is that we don't make really big frames, we don't make what would be the equivalent of a 59 or 61cm frame. We top out with the XL which is like a 58cm in comparison to most road geometry frames.

Therefore both UP and Warbird are great options if you want to ride your bike in a road position and let the tires take care of the bad surface instead of your position (and then it depends on how bad that surface is if you want the option to fit 2.1" MTB tires or not). If you want your POSITION to change because you ride on a bad surface, then in the case of Salsa the Fargo or Cutthroat would make more sense.

Gerard Vroomen
co-founder/owner OPEN
co-owner 3T

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ljsmith
Gerard Vroomen wrote:


Mostly sound advice in this thread, but one thing on geometry. It's strange to call the UP aggressive and then recommend the Warbird. The 49cm Warbird has actually a 4mm lower stack  than the Small UP, while the 56cm Warbird has 5mm more stack than the UP, so in both cases they are in the same ballpark. Where there is a difference is that we don't make really big frames, we don't make what would be the equivalent of a 59 or 61cm frame. We top out with the XL which is like a 58cm in comparison to most road geometry frames.

Therefore both UP and Warbird are great options if you want to ride your bike in a road position and let the tires take care of the bad surface instead of your position (and then it depends on how bad that surface is if you want the option to fit 2.1" MTB tires or not). If you want your POSITION to change because you ride on a bad surface, then in the case of Salsa the Fargo or Cutthroat would make more sense.


I am 5’ 10”. Looking at your geometry chart I would choose the Medium UP. (And your geometry chart states the Medium fits 5’7” to 5’ 11”). The Large UP is bigger than I would want. The stack height of the Medium is 551. I just got a 56cm Warbird with a stack height of 585. That’s a difference of 34, that is not the same ballpark. I currently have a 30mm spacer under my stem. To get the same position on the Medium UP I would need 64mm of spacers. Not only would that look hideous, it’s not a good idea to have that many spacers on a carbon steerer. Even the Large (which as I said is too big for me) the stack height of the Warbird is 5mm more. So I would say it’s pretty aggressive in comparison to the Warbird, at least when doing a real world apples to apples comparison. There’s nothing wrong with an aggressive frame, I would have loved the UP geometry when I was in my 20s. But I’m in my forties now and I’m not interested in being in such a tucked position anymore, at least not on gravel. Just looking at an Open UP makes my hands and neck hurt thinking of what a 100 mile gravel ride would be like riding in that position.
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