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bnystrom

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Reply with quote  #51 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby

There's really only one offset stock bike, the Surly Pugsley.


Not true, Cannondale has their AI system with the cassette offset 6mm to the right. They use it on several 'cross/Gravel and MTB models. My girlfriend has a SuperX and I've built a couple of sets of wheels for it. It requires a 12mm spacer on the left side of the hub when you're truing/dishing the rear wheel, but Cannondale doesn't supply one with the bike. With the 12mm thru-axle, it's a simple matter to cut a spacer from 1/2" PVC or copper pipe. I also machined an extra-long dummy axle from 1/2" rod.
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #52 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnystrom


My girlfriend has a SuperX and I've built a couple of sets of wheels for it. It requires a 12mm spacer on the left side of the hub when you're truing/dishing the rear wheel, but Cannondale doesn't supply one with the bike.


So does your Niner wheel need a spacer on the right side to true?
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #53 
There was also the Specialized SCS system where they wanted to get a road chainline with a 135 hub for the Tarmac (because 405 chainstays). They didn't offset the hub, they offset the whole cassette body, and the derailleur hanger.

My assumption is that when the Niner rep passed on "designed for a road crank", what the designer meant is "designed so that road-sized chainrings and a road-Q crankarm end don't hit the chainstays".
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Dave_UK

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Reply with quote  #54 
Not sure if this is right place to ask.....
But does anyone know if the Ultegra 6800 will accommodate a 34 tooth on the cassette (Or higher)?
I'm pretty certain. It's possible or with the 105 even though Shimano say 32.
Struggle on hills with my 34 crank and 11-30 on current bike, so wonder if 34 front and 11-32 Will make e high difference on next bike ?
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email.gjm

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Reply with quote  #55 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_UK
Not sure if this is right place to ask.....
But does anyone know if the Ultegra 6800 will accommodate a 34 tooth on the cassette (Or higher)?
I'm pretty certain. It's possible or with the 105 even though Shimano say 32.
Struggle on hills with my 34 crank and 11-30 on current bike, so wonder if 34 front and 11-32 Will make e high difference on next bike ?



I have the 105 with 50/34 chain rings and shimano 11-34 cassette and still want a lower gear for steep hills we have in BC.  I am guessing that over 10% grade maybe a bit more is where the 34-34 gear still works for me but definitely over 15% and it is too high.  So trying to make a modified 105 rear derailleur work with a shimano 11-40 XT cassette.   I think that will be enough, but if not I guess may look at the absolute black 46-30 chain rings.
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Cmtgravel

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Reply with quote  #56 
I've been running 11-36 cassette with standard 105 rear derailleur with no problems. Zero modifications, no road link or reversed b screw. Just some minor adjustment by good mechanic. I also run a 42/28 sram mtb crankset , no problems with derailleur or chainline. Try it.
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Dave_UK

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Reply with quote  #57 
Quote:
Originally Posted by email.gjm



I have the 105 with 50/34 chain rings and shimano 11-34 cassette and still want a lower gear for steep hills we have in BC.  I am guessing that over 10% grade maybe a bit more is where the 34-34 gear still works for me but definitely over 15% and it is too high.  So trying to make a modified 105 rear derailleur work with a shimano 11-40 XT cassette.   I think that will be enough, but if not I guess may look at the absolute black 46-30 chain rings.


Thanks email.gjm, so seems it might be possible with the Ultegra then. But I'm probably not wrong thinking I might need the extra teeth for the longer hills :)
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Dave_UK

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Reply with quote  #58 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cmtgravel
I've been running 11-36 cassette with standard 105 rear derailleur with no problems. Zero modifications, no road link or reversed b screw. Just some minor adjustment by good mechanic. I also run a 42/28 sram mtb crankset , no problems with derailleur or chainline. Try it.


Cheers Cmtgravel
Sounds promising then.
Must admit I'm new to some if this terminology (a lot of it actually) never heard of a road link before 🤔
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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #59 
Just swapped over to a 11-42 out back with a 42 up front on my new Sram Force 1x setup...perfect with that 1:1 granny and the spacing between cogs is just fine for me.  Decided to do a Sunrace cassette and forego the 10t cog on the Sram cassettes forcing me to get an XD driver...I'm rarely in my 11 and if I am, that 10 isn't going to help me much.
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bnystrom

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Reply with quote  #60 
That's a 103-inch gear, which should be plenty. I don't know if I've ever used the 11 on my 46/30 2x setup. That's why I really want a 12, which would give me essentially the same top gear that you have. IRD makes a 12-32, but it's somewhat pricey.
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GHC

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Reply with quote  #61 
I agree with what others have typed .... the gearing you want really depends on the rider and conditions.   

Piling on that thought, Ill add distance and duration matters too  ... especially imo when endurance (100 on up) gravel riding/racing with lots of climb ... it isn't so much what I can get up the hills with for me, it's more about what I can get up the hills with WITHOUT red lining/maxing heart rate early in the ride.   


In other words,  maybe I can get up the hills with road cranks and cassette.....but if I do that 10 times in the first hour in a long gravel ride or event and peg my heart rate a number of times early, I will absolutely pay for it later.     Meaning, choosing the right gearing for me is about being able to have available options to manage my heart rate when I know I need to.....not what I can get up a hill with if I have to.   Those are two different things for me.  

I guess what I am trying to say is .... I agree that what a rider "needs" is dependent on a lot of factors, and the benefits of not pegging heart rate too early/often on long rides/races are part of those factors in my world. 

IMO, much of this (gearing) can be ignored if I am just out for two hour recreational ride, and can probably be ignored by most folks riding similar.   But if I am long gravel riding, gearing importance and options can help me be everything I can be at that point.   I also believe that many non pavement riders could benefit from lower gear options then what come off the rack, but that is for them to decide and most importantly have fun and achieve their goals with.

One thing is for certain in my mind .... we have a lot more great gearing options readily available now, and that trend will hopefully continue.

my two cents, ymmv



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Dave_UK

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Reply with quote  #62 
Those are good insights into why it might sense to choose certain gear sets.
Food for thought.
I'm never going to be a 100 miler plus....unlikely anyway.
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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #63 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHC
 
-snip-
Piling on that thought, Ill add distance and duration matters too  ... especially imo when endurance (100 on up) gravel riding/racing with lots of climb ... it isn't so much what I can get up the hills with for me, it's more about what I can get up the hills with WITHOUT red lining/maxing heart rate early in the ride.   


In other words,  maybe I can get up the hills with road cranks and cassette.....but if I do that 10 times in the first hour in a long gravel ride or event and peg my heart rate a number of times early, I will absolutely pay for it later.     Meaning, choosing the right gearing for me is about being able to have available options to manage my heart rate when I know I need to.....not what I can get up a hill with if I have to.   Those are two different things for me.  
-snip-

Sage advice - I couldn't agree more!

A common mistake by people moving from road to gravel (or mtb for that matter):  Wider tires increase the effective gear ratio!

As a tire gets wider it also gets taller.  Taller means the diameter of the wheel is increasing.  A 40 mm gravel tire is much taller than the popular 23 mm road tire - about 5% taller to be precise.  That would be like increasing the size of the crankset 34t chainring to 36t.

This is another reason why gravel cranksets with a small ring of 30 or 32 teeth makes sense
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email.gjm

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Reply with quote  #64 
I have now completed and tested installing an 11-40 Shimano 11 speed cassette on a Trek Checkpoint SL5.   Initially, I modified the Shimano 105 rear derailleur with a longer cage (a deore long cage), however even with reversed B screw that was not enough to give enough clearance for the guide jockey wheel on the derailleur using the 40 cog.  (Note that I used the smaller jockey wheels from the deore cage rather than the stock 105 wheels since that should also provide more clearance but maybe those deore wheels/bearings aren't as good?) Therefore, I needed a wolf tooth roadlink to provide the required clearance.   That allowed for normal B screw position.   I believe an 11-42 cassette would also work, however noted roadlink says its not supported.   It is possible that with the roadlink I could revert to the stock medium cage on the 105 rear derailleur, however possibly the longer cage implies the rear derailleur has more capacity and at a minimum probably helps with the length of chain required to shift into a 50 front chainring and 40 cog (which is never intentional, but can happen occasionally if not paying attention).  With my 34 chainring on the front and the 40 cog on the back it makes it comfortable gearing for pretty steep hills.   

It was definitely more complicated to deal with all the issues with this modification and in hindsight might have just gone with 46-30 chainrings on the front and maybe tried an 11-36 SRAM cassette with B screw reversed on the derailleur.   I have not noted issues with the roadlink and the small 11 T cog at the back as some have reported.  In any case it might be useful reporting this experience, and also put out a question as to why this kind of wider gearing capacity is not being provided by the bike manufacturers or shimano/sram's?  
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HollyBoni

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Reply with quote  #65 
Quote:
Originally Posted by email.gjm
In any case it might be useful reporting this experience, and also put out a question as to why this kind of wider gearing capacity is not being provided by the bike manufacturers or shimano/sram's?  


I think it's going to change. In the past drop bars meant mostly road bikes. A lot of people, especially roadies don't like big jumps in the cassette.

But now we have bikes with drop bars and big tyres that you can take to a lot of places offroad, where you need lower gearing. MTBs have tiny chainrings and 42-50 cassettes for a reason.

I think we are going to see lower gearing options. The newer single pivot road rear derailleurs now go up to a 34T cog officially. 

46/30 cranksets would be awesome, one problem is that you can't go as low as 30T on a 110BCD crankset. Absoluteblack did it with some clever engineering, but really the big manufacturers need to come out with cranksets that have a different BCD.

Personally i'm waiting for a drop bar Eagle groupset. 😉 I really hope it comes out because now you can even get 12spd with NX on the MTB side.

I'm running a 38T chainring with a 10-42 cassette, and while it's pretty good a 50T would be even better when climbing steep singletrack.
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GHC

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Reply with quote  #66 
with you ... if shimano produced a 46-30 crankset and matching front derailleur with Ultegra stamped on them, and marketed the weight savings over dinner plate cassettes..... they would sell like hot cakes (if they worked).

IMO ... at this stage of the game, there are enough road riders coming out to play on gravel that are loyal/conditioned to buy Ultegra, and who are conditioned to pay up to shave  grams....I think it would work.

(The only downside is, we would have more roadies riding steep gravel hills better and getting in the way = attempted humor, not offense, intended on this parenthetical)

All of that being typed, Shimano is playing the gravel game.  Coming out with flared (cow chipper styled) bars, bigger road cassettes, and clutched derailleurs.   I have no idea, but they probably have bigger margins selling bigger "Ultegra" cassettes, and offering 11 speed rear derailleur's that can handle more .... so I am not holding my breath that they will risk eroding that investment by selling 46-30 cranks.....would be nice though.
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bnystrom

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Reply with quote  #67 
It's not difficult to find 46/30 cranksets. FSA has both carbon and aluminum options at reasonable prices that are widely available. There are offerings from Rotor, Sugino and others. It would be nice if the "S" and "C" companies jumped on the bandwagon, but it's not essential that they do.

A lot of gravel bikes will also work fine with MTB cranks, which open up a huge range of gearing possibilities. I don't understand why anyone would go with one of the monster-sized - and weight - cassettes with huge gearing gaps, requiring special derailleurs, or adapters (Roadlink, etc.) that compromise shift quality, when there are much lighter, simpler options that work with normal-sized cassettes. Even on a frame designed for road cranks, it seems better to compromise the chainline slightly than to deal with the downsides of huge cassettes.

Heck, I have one bike with a road triple crank with the outer ring removed that gives me 39/24 chainrings. Most of the time I run it with an 11-25, 10 speed cassette for gravel road use and it's shifts like a dream. It's Campy shifters and rear derailleur, with a SRAM front derailleur. I can easily go up to a 29 in the back if I need lower gearing, without compromising or adapting anything. You could do the same thing with Shimano or SRAM 11-speed and get even lower gearing if you need it, without huge gearing gaps.

Yes, I'm primarily a roadie, but I've fallen in love with dirt/gravel road and trail riding.
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HollyBoni

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Reply with quote  #68 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bnystrom
It's not difficult to find 46/30 cranksets. FSA has both carbon and aluminum options at reasonable prices that are widely available. There are offerings from Rotor, Sugino and others. It would be nice if the "S" and "C" companies jumped on the bandwagon, but it's not essential that they do.

A lot of gravel bikes will also work fine with MTB cranks, which open up a huge range of gearing possibilities. I don't understand why anyone would go with one of the monster-sized - and weight - cassettes with huge gearing gaps, requiring special derailleurs, or adapters (Roadlink, etc.) that compromise shift quality, when there are much lighter, simpler options that work with normal-sized cassettes. Even on a frame designed for road cranks, it seems better to compromise the chainline slightly than to deal with the downsides of huge cassettes.

Heck, I have one bike with a road triple crank with the outer ring removed that gives me 39/24 chainrings. Most of the time I run it with an 11-25, 10 speed cassette for gravel road use and it's shifts like a dream. It's Campy shifters and rear derailleur, with a SRAM front derailleur. I can easily go up to a 29 in the back if I need lower gearing, without compromising or adapting anything. You could do the same thing with Shimano or SRAM 11-speed and get even lower gearing if you need it, without huge gearing gaps.

Yes, I'm primarily a roadie, but I've fallen in love with dirt/gravel road and trail riding.


I thought in Shimano world you can't mix MTB and road front derailleurs (not just rear) because they use a different pull ratios. So that's not true? With SRAM I think it works, although i'm not even sure if they still make MTB FDs. 

What if your frame has a braze on FD mount? Do modern MTB FDs work with that and can the FD go low enough for a mountain crankset? 

The taking off a chainring from a triple idea sounds interesting, although you can only get a triple with Tiagra 4700 and below, and i'm not sure if there is a triple for SRAM road stuff. 

I don't think chainline is an issue with 135 and thru axle disc frames. 

Still, it would be nice if I could just buy a new, up to date complete groupset with the specs I want when i'm building up a bike. Sure, I can get an FSA crankset, but then I need to sell the Shimano/SRAM crankset that came with the groupset and probably loose a bit of money. I know, first world problems, but... 😉 

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bnystrom

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Reply with quote  #69 
Quote:
I thought in Shimano world you can't mix MTB and road front derailleurs (not just rear) because they use a different pull ratios. So that's not true? With SRAM I think it works, although i'm not even sure if they still make MTB FDs. 

I'm not sure about the mixing issue with Shimano. It works with older Campy levers because the front isn't indexed and has multiple trim positions. They work with pretty much any front derailleur. 

SRAM is not designing new MTB front derailleurs and they may not be making older designs anymore (I'm not sure), but they're still available as replacement parts.

Quote:
What if your frame has a braze on FD mount? Do modern MTB FDs work with that and can the FD go low enough for a mountain crankset? 

Whether it works on any given frameset will depend on where the mount is positioned and how long the slot is. If need be, there are adapters available that lower the front derailleur. Unlike with rear derailleurs, it doesn't adversely affect the shifting performance. Also, frames with round seat tubes may accept a clamp-on FD below the mount, which may also be removable in some cases.

Quote:
The taking off a chainring from a triple idea sounds interesting, although you can only get a triple with Tiagra 4700 and below, and i'm not sure if there is a triple for SRAM road stuff. 

The one I have is an FSA Gossamer. There are high-quality triples out there, including NOS road and MTB cranks.

Quote:
I don't think chainline is an issue with 135 and thru axle disc frames. 

No, it shouldn't be.

Quote:
Still, it would be nice if I could just buy a new, up to date complete groupset with the specs I want when i'm building up a bike. Sure, I can get an FSA crankset, but then I need to sell the Shimano/SRAM crankset that came with the groupset and probably loose a bit of money. I know, first world problems, but... 😉

I don't generally buy full groupsets, as I rarely want all of the parts that come with them. I just pick up the pieces I need when I find good deals on them. Lately, I've mostly been modifying existing bikes rather than building from scratch.

Complete groups cost less than the individual parts at regular retail, so even if you discount the crank somewhat to sell it, you're not losing any money.

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HollyBoni

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Reply with quote  #70 
So SRAM with older FDs or Campag, and I have to muck about to make it work, and I can't buy a complete groupset. Not ideal. [frown] 

I really really wish you could just mix and match mountain and road stuff. Still to this day I don't understand why derailleurs have to use different (barely) cable pull and pull ratios both with SRAM and Shimano. They changed it multiple times anyway, why not just use one...
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bnystrom

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Reply with quote  #71 
Probably for the same reason we have over a dozen BB "standards". [frown]
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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #72 
Lots of good ideas and questions in this thread, love it!!!

Some additional thots...

The 11 spd road FD's will handle 18t jumps.  In other words one could purchase a 52/36 crankset and run it with 52/34.  Have a friend doing this and while he says shifting up requires a bit more "love" (read: don't hammer when shifting up), the shift down is as reliable the 52/36 configuration.

One caution: because the 52t chainring requires a higher FD mount point, in a 52/34 config the tail of the FD may contact the chain farther back and rub in a cross chained combination. Contact farther back on the FD will also cause more flex in the FD which may slow shifting on some FD's.

I have a tandem on order and the builder claims the Roadlink works just fine with the 11/40 cassette but advised against the 11/42 cassette Roadlink combo.  He was echoing his experience and that of other customers and this was for tandem use in 11spd drivetrains.

I agree moving to smaller crankset BCD's would be great for gravel, but IMO the current MTB double cranksets are too small.  The older MTB triples have a 94mm BCD which would seem ideal - per Sheldon Brown's crib page this would allow a smallest chainring of 29t.  A 45/29 double with a 11/34 would give a wide range with a reasonably tall top gear and sub 1:1 low.  I've seen lots of these old triples in the parts bin at the local bike co-op where I volunteer. IMO the primary downside of the old cranksets is most have the square taper bottom bracket which is going to be much heavier than the modern gear. 

Cheers,
Greg


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TiGeo

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Reply with quote  #73 
Road Link with a short cage Ultegra and a 11-40 worked great (1x).
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GHC

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Reply with quote  #74 
Agree with you bnystrom RE it not being essential the "S" and "C" companies climb aboard.  (But it would be nice) 

If there is sufficient demand (and in this case apparently there is), the smaller/niche/whatever component companies will find a way.   Adding to that point .... so will the complete bike sellers.   Case in point are a few of the "gravel" riding focused bikes shipping with smaller/easily flexible crank gearing capabilities ..... up to and including Ridley's Xtrail Carbon "Ultegra" now shipping all Ultegra but for the Rotor 3D30 crankset.   

One way or another, a guy can find what he wants.
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runrideski

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Reply with quote  #75 
Another example is the Norco Search XR with full Ultegra except for a Praxis 48-32 crank.

We almost went with this crank when building up new full Ultegra bikes, but opted instead for Ultegra 46-36, and swapping the inner chainring (about $30) for a 34 (from the 50-34 compact road 'system') on my partner's bike.
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