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wanderer

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I would specifically like to address the beginning of this thread to guitar ted and dr.spoke, as they appear to change tubeless tires like other folks change underwear; anyone else is welcome to chime in:

As a roadie, I never considered tubeless tires for my bike. Too fussy/messy/unnecessary. Now that I have been reformed/rehabilitated, I have had some success with tubeless and I like the concept for non-paved surfaces. I ride a variety of terrain, and it is amazing what a change in the shoes does for a bike's personality and performance. I prefer to change tires rather than continue to buy new wheels, for obvious reasons ($$). But this need/wish for frequent tire changes is what has kept me from jumping in for tubeless, with several concerns. Number one, the mess. OK I guess when you change tires seasonally, but every few weeks? How do clean all that stuff up? Can you store/re-use tires once they are full of sealant? Do you strip your rims and tape every time you change out? And God help anyone (mainly me) if you do flat in the outback and have to repair/tube your tire? Do you look like a bad joke for a glue commercial for the rest of the ride (if you can even lever the tire off/on the rim)? My riding skills are one thing to laugh about, but I would never live it down if I actually showed up to the finish actually adhered to the bike!

Thanks for your thoughts. Fire away!
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RoverAl

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Reply with quote  #2 
A rag, yes, no, no
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dgaddis1

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When I change tires if there's still good sealant in the old tire I just pour it into the new one.

I try not to change tires often though.  I learned with my MTB how tires stretch with use, and the more the mount/remove them the more they stretch, eventually to the point they can blow off the rim.  I had a well-used 2.0" MTB tire blow off with only 25psi once.

The carbon beaded Road Tubeless tires it's less of a concern.

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shiggy

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I am right there with you. I am willing to swap tubed tires every other day. Tubeless with sealant? Not so much. Especially when mounting a new set may take a few days to have them hold ridable pressure for more than 10-12 hours.

Yes, it is messy. Having a syringe helps, to put the sealant in through the valve, and to suck up sealant (if any remains liquid) when changing tires. You do the latter after you remove one side from the rim.
Anything you use sealant it will be messier than just running tubes.

I always change the tires in the yard, with a stand to hang the wheels, and the garden hose handy to rinse out the tire and clean off the rim.

You WILL lose sealant. Swapping tires often can get expensive because you need a lot of sealant. Imagine if you could not reuse tubes when you changed tires.
A good rim tape job does not need to be replaced very often.

Yes, you store and reuse a tire used with sealant. It will usually seal up quicker when remounted.

Flat on a ride? Yes, you likely need to put in a tube. Use a rag and your water bottle to clean up the bulk of the sealant, after you pour out what you can. You will have a hell of a time to remove the tube later.

The tire beads do stretch after mounting, but I have not noticed it stretch more each time you remove and remount the tire, and I have done this dozens of times with hundreds of tires. Unless the bead actually breaks (the does happen) it will stretch then stabilize.
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wanderer

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Reply with quote  #5 
Thanks, shiggy. That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. There are many,many videos out there how to mount up tubeless, but I haven't seen one yet about how to change out or care for tires you want to save and how to do it with the least amount os sealant on everything!
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer
I would specifically like to address the beginning of this thread to guitar ted and dr.spoke, as they appear to change tubeless tires like other folks change underwear; anyone else is welcome to chime in:

As a roadie, I never considered tubeless tires for my bike. Too fussy/messy/unnecessary. Now that I have been reformed/rehabilitated, I have had some success with tubeless and I like the concept for non-paved surfaces. I ride a variety of terrain, and it is amazing what a change in the shoes does for a bike's personality and performance. I prefer to change tires rather than continue to buy new wheels, for obvious reasons ($$). But this need/wish for frequent tire changes is what has kept me from jumping in for tubeless, with several concerns. Number one, the mess. OK I guess when you change tires seasonally, but every few weeks? How do clean all that stuff up? Can you store/re-use tires once they are full of sealant? Do you strip your rims and tape every time you change out? And God help anyone (mainly me) if you do flat in the outback and have to repair/tube your tire? Do you look like a bad joke for a glue commercial for the rest of the ride (if you can even lever the tire off/on the rim)? My riding skills are one thing to laugh about, but I would never live it down if I actually showed up to the finish actually adhered to the bike!

Thanks for your thoughts. Fire away!

Coming from the same roadie background as Wanderer, I also am a new convert to tubeless GG tires. Here are my additional questions to the experts:
1. At what point do you decide to add or redo sealant? My mountain bike expert told me that the timing was simple --- just wait until you notice that the tire is no longer holding pressure as long as it did originally. Does that make sense, or should you just add an ounce or so after a certain number of miles or time?
2. When it is time for a change do you simply add more sealant -- or do you remove, clean and do a complete redo?
3. If you store your wheels in an unheated area over the winter (temps well below freezing), should you remove the sealant and reinstall the tires when Spring arrives?


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shiggy

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh

Coming from the same roadie background as Wanderer, I also am a new convert to tubeless GG tires. Here are my additional questions to the experts:
1. At what point do you decide to add or redo sealant? My mountain bike expert told me that the timing was simple --- just wait until you notice that the tire is no longer holding pressure as long as it did originally. Does that make sense, or should you just add an ounce or so after a certain number of miles or time?
2. When it is time for a change do you simply add more sealant -- or do you remove, clean and do a complete redo?
3. If you store your wheels in an unheated area over the winter (temps well below freezing), should you remove the sealant and reinstall the tires when Spring arrives?



How long sealant lasts depends on the specific sealant, and the local conditions. In hot dry weather most will dry out more quickly. The only way to know if you need to replenish, before air loss, is to open the tire and look.
A puncture that will not seal, a slow leak are the usual clues it is time. I have also had the pressure hold fine on paved rides, then on a rough rocky ride had both tires start deflating without a puncture. The sealant was dry and I figure the extra flexing of the casing opened up some holes (these where thin lightweight casings).

I just add 20cc of sealant when needed and I am not swapping tires. Usually no need to clean out the old until you change tires.

I would remove sealant when storing mounted tires for a long periods of time. It WILL dry out, and you do not really want that lump of hardened latex in there - in one spot.
Then remount the tires, inflate, store. Add new sealant before you use them again.
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shiggy

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderer
Thanks, shiggy. That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. There are many,many videos out there how to mount up tubeless, but I haven't seen one yet about how to change out or care for tires you want to save and how to do it with the least amount os sealant on everything!


A tubeless mounting tip I have not seen anywhere, for tough to seat tires:

Seat the tire with an inner tube.
Deflate, unmount ONE side of the tire and remove the tube.
Install tubeless valve , with core removed.
Spray beads (both sides) with soapy water.
Remount tire.
Inflate tire to seat the bead.
Add sealant through valve.
Reinstall valve core.
Inflate.
Ride.

I also find that spraying the inside of the tire with a bit of soapy water helps the casing seal more quickly.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiggy
How long sealant lasts depends on the specific sealant, and the local conditions. In hot dry weather most will dry out more quickly. The only way to know if you need to replenish, before air loss, is to open the tire and look. A puncture that will not seal, a slow leak are the usual clues it is time. I have also had the pressure hold fine on paved rides, then on a rough rocky ride had both tires start deflating without a puncture. The sealant was dry and I figure the extra flexing of the casing opened up some holes (these where thin lightweight casings). I just add 20cc of sealant when needed and I am not swapping tires. Usually no need to clean out the old until you change tires. I would remove sealant when storing mounted tires for a long periods of time. It WILL dry out, and you do not really want that lump of hardened latex in there - in one spot. Then remount the tires, inflate, store. Add new sealant before you use them again.

Shiggy - thanks for the info and advice. Not sure how to remove sealant before storage. My guess is that you deflate tire, remove one bead, and use a sealant syringe to suck out the sealant. Then re-inflate tire for storage. Yes? BTW, I'm using Orange seal endurance.
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shiggy

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh

Shiggy - thanks for the info and advice. Not sure how to remove sealant before storage. My guess is that you deflate tire, remove one bead, and use a sealant syringe to suck out the sealant. Then re-inflate tire for storage. Yes? BTW, I'm using Orange seal endurance.

Yes, and I would rinse out the inside.
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RoverAl

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Reply with quote  #11 
@bobknh
If you can hang your tire on a hook of some sort above a bucket or cup all you need to do is simply pinch the bottom of the tire over a bucket or cup and let the small amount of sealant fall into a container. Your dealing with 2oz~ about 2 shot glasses worth of liquid

Also for those who haven't actually used the sealant before, it is a similar consistency to milk. It is not like glue or sticky to your hands it is somewhat watery. After the solvent which keeps the latex in solution dries out you have a spider web like matrix similar to rubber bands you simply peel out of you tire the best you can. 

My best success has been with Schwalbe tubeless ready tires and tubeless ready rims. The Schwalbe  G one all around tire and Allmotion touring tire both needed very little topping off after several days of rest. The allmotion had dried out sealant in them for months and were worry free.  When you get tired of high priced sealants there is a simple home brew formula out there that works great. (lots of variables with tubeless) practice makes perfect.

Dried out home brew sealant(experiment) in a WTB nano 40 non tubeless rated tire. 
After 90 days no topping off(never went below 25 psi) pulled off rim still moist but not flowing.
IMG_20160727_085141.jpg

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Christ D.

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Reply with quote  #12 
@ RoverAl , care to share the recipe of the home brew sealant please ? Thx
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RoverAl

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Reply with quote  #13 
From Guitar Ted's and MTB forum threads. Thanks to all the previous experimenters/posters for this recipe

Ingredients:

Walmart RV& Marine potable water system antifreeze(not the engine type) about 97cents a gallon Looks pink in color
Latex mold builder approx $11 for 16oz Get the online coupon for Michaels fo 40% off the $16 price

OPTIONAL: Slime tire sealant  automotive kind
Glitter

To make 8oz total

 2 Tablespoons of Latex mold builder, I just use an old kitchen spoon Some only use 1 tablespoon of latex 

*1/2 to 1 tablespoon of slime
 6 oz or fill to 8 oz with AF
*couple shakes of glitter

Stir until homogenous.

*The slime seems to make the solution last longer in the tire
 2 Tablespoons of latex does the trick for me you can adjust that level up or down. I found a higher viscosity works better for me.
This is enough ingredients to make quite a bit of sealant.

I use my old orange seal bottles and have been happy with my results.
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Jeb

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Reply with quote  #14 
I'm about to jump into the deep end of the tubeless pool and thought I'd document my progress for everyones amusement. There are 3 wheelsets involved, 1 road, 2 gravel. A Stan's Alpha 340, Velocity Blunt SL, and Stan's Crest. Tires are Schwalbe Pro 1 25mm, Clement MSO 36mm, and Panaracer Gravel King SK 43mm. A few years ago I ran some Hutchinsons on the Alphas and some non tubeless Kendas on the Crests so I've had some experience with tubeless. Both setups mounted easily with a floor pump and I think I ran them all summer with no flats but with the exception of no pinch flats I didn't see the benefits tubeless so didn't continue using them. Now I'm stoked to try again. The Schwalbes mounted on the Alphas by hand but I couldn't get them to seat dry with the floor pump so in went tubes and lots of soapy water at which point they seated nicely. I rode them about 40 miles at 75f / 80r and then removed the tube on the front and installed the tubeless valve, applied soapy water and it seated with my 30 year old pump. I left the valve core installed. The tire was also easy to remove and reinstall. The wheel has 2 layers of Stan's tape. Tubeless at 98psi the tire measures just under 28mm. On the road with tubes at 75/80 the tires felt plush and comfortable, I think more so than the Conti 4000 25mm with latex tubes and just as fast. I can't wait to get the back changed out and try them tubeless on the road. I'll let them sit overnight to see how well they hold air before adding sealant. At the moment the Clements are mounted on the Blunts with tubes. The front went on by hand but the rear required a tire lever to complete the installation. They are measuring just under 36mm with the tubes. I'll run them a few miles and then remove the tubes and hope it goes as well as the Schwalbes. The GKSKs remain untouched. I'll post updates as work progresses and I'm sure I'll learn some things from all the folks on the forum.








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Jeb

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Reply with quote  #15 
Finally an update on my tubeless odyssey. The Schwalbe Pro Ones are great tires, very comfortable and fast. Keep in mind the tires are fast, not me. I'm running them at 70f / 75r. They hold air as well as a tubed setup. They're 25mm and measure out at 27+. I bought them from Chain Reaction for $38 ea.

The Clement 36mm MSO tires had to be returned. Both tires had a side to side wobble. They did mount to a set of Velocity Blunt SL rims with no problem and seated with a floor pump. I'm replacing them with a set of Schwalbe G-One Allround microskin / TL easy based on my favorable experience with the Pro Ones.

Finally, the Panaracer Gravel King 40mm. I mounted them tubeless on the Blunt SL rims to stretch them out a bit before trying them on the Stan's Crest rims.  I mounted one by hand and the other needed one push with a lever but they both seated with soapy water and the floor pump. I let them sit for a couple of days and then put them on the Stan's. Got them on by hand and seated with the floor pump. I've put about 75 miles on them so far and I'm very happy with them. They are both measuring almost 44.5mm on the Crest rims at 40/45psi. I'm going to drop the pressure a few pounds. I weigh about 145 so should be able to go lower.

So far it's definitely been a learning experience. It's a shame the Clements had the wobble as I really like the tubed versions I've used and was looking forward to trying them tubeless.
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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #16 
"At what point do you decide to add or redo sealant?"

Orange Seal sells a dipstick which one can use to check the sealant after removing the valve core.  Alternatively one could make a dipstick with a long finishing nail and simply mark the level of the sealant after the initial installation.  Last I checked a package of 10 dipsticks was $8 online.  I'll sell ya 10 finishing nails for $7 [wink]

As the sealant dries (cures) inside the tire it adds very little weight - most of the weight is the liquid. 

To the question of how long it will last, in addition to temperature, the amount of air being lost from the tire will be a big factor.   Most (all?) sealants cure/harden as the pH changes. The liquid is there to keep the sealant viscous  so it will flow inside the tire. So "in theory" if one continues to add fresh sealant to the tire before the existing sealant cures, the fresh sealant will mix with the existing to keep it from becoming too viscous.  Thicker sealant should seal better as there will be a higher particle content.  It would be nice if sealant makers sold a solvent which one could add to the tire to rejuvenate (aka thin) the sealant.

Regarding freezing point - this will vary from brand to brand as some use more/less water and other chemicals.  CO2 inflation systems can be problematic as the blast of cold air can cause a thermal shock which precipitates the particles out of the sealant and reduce it's effectiveness (make it useless?).  As Leonard Zinn recommends, when inflating a tube with a cartridge, put the valve in the 12:00 position so the sealant will be at the bottom of the tire and inflate slowly to minimize the thermal shock.
http://www.velonews.com/2014/12/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-tire-sealant-questions_355499

Cheers,
Greg 
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