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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #1 
I've been using Compass 35 mm Bon Jon's -extra light casing - all season. Over 2,000 miles on paved and unpaved roads. I've been using them with Challenge latex tubes. The lug less BJ's do well on most hard surfaces - even recently re-graded dirt roads. I recently purchased a new pair of extra-light BJ's and mounted them tubeless on my new wheels with HED Belgium + rims. The tires were professionally installed with Orange Seal Endurance sealant by professional bike mechanics with many years experience with tubeless installation. None-the- less, after my first few rides, I've been experiencing some difficulties with the tires hold air. They lose about 10-15 psi over night. I started removing the wheels, doing the shake-shake procedure and resting them in a horizontal position. Hopefully, this will cure the problem. Of course, I could also go back to Challenge latex tubes. But this defeats the whole idea of tubeless. Are there any other light weight lug less tires out there in the 35-40 mm size, that might perform as well as the BJ's, and offer better tubeless air retention?
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #2 
Would you happen to know how much sealant they actually used per tire?
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle
Would you happen to know how much sealant they actually used per tire?

Kris Henry of 44 Cycles put in "2 full syringes" in each tire -- about 4 oz. each. I saw Kris today to cut the steerer on my new 44 Huntsman. I asked him if I should add more sealant. He told me that there was still plenty sloshing around. His advice was to continue doing the "shake shake" routine and letting the wheels set in the horizontal position. He's had other clients with similar tubeless issues. Sometimes it takes a while for the bead and tire rim to fully seal. Once they do seal fully, my problem may go away. I noticed that after even a day or so of TLC on the tires, the air retention is improving. But I think the tires are worth the effort.
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #4 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh

Kris Henry of 44 Cycles put in "2 full syringes" in each tire -- about 4 oz. each. I saw Kris today to cut the steerer on my new 44 Huntsman. I asked him if I should add more sealant. He told me that there was still plenty sloshing around. His advice was to continue doing the "shake shake" routine and letting the wheels set in the horizontal position. He's had other clients with similar tubeless issues. Sometimes it takes a while for the bead and tire rim to fully seal. Once they do seal fully, my problem may go away. I noticed that after even a day or so of TLC on the tires, the air retention is improving. But I think the tires are worth the effort.


I agree with that above. Some really lightweight tires end up needing a bit more sealant. The 'slosh' sound was the next thing I was going to ask about. Sounds like you're on the right track. You may not get to the point of zero air loss over a day or two, but you should quickly reach the point where they hold air much better than a latex tube. I didn't realize Kris Henry set them up. Definitely an actual 'professional' in what you're discussing. Even like 15 years after the first Stans tubeless kits were sold, there's still many LBS employees that don't have a clue what to do with tubeless setups or immediately tell you to avoid it.
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Smale Rider

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Reply with quote  #5 
I near horizontal spin as well, get it on a slight angle to where the bead is. Sometimes it could be the tire casing itself. I had issues with some clements in the past, it required more sealant to fill in the bad casing voids that sealant was just pouring out of all over.
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #6 
If you spray soapy water on the sidewalls you might see the pinholes. It just takes some time and more-than-normal sealant. My rear Rat Trap Pass (standard version) would lose 10psi overnight and did that for over a year, despite topping of the sealant every two months. Last month I think I topped it off, forgot, then added another 2oz the next day. Now it only loses a couple of psi per week.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #7 
Thanks folks for all the useful info. and suggestions. Now, at least I know that others have experienced these difficulties and dealt with them. I'm not positive, but, I don't think that I have any pin hole leaks in the BJ sidewalls. Most, if not all of the leaks seem to come from the bead/rim interface. I'm a bit disappointed with Compass. My feeling is that their designation of "tubeless compatible" is a bit disingenuous. Just because some of their tires have reinforced beads for tubeless application, as my BJ experience suggests, it may take a lot of time, patience, and skill, to get these puppies to work. In contrast, I had no difficulties with my Panaracer GK SK tubeless ready tires - even on non tubeless rims. Panaracer manufactures the Compass tires. They obviously know how to make a tire truly tubeless ready. COMPASS TIRES AREN'T TUBELESS READY! That being said, my BJ's are improving daily. My front tire held air overnight at 50 PSI, with almost no pressure loss; while my rear tire only lost about 5 PSI over night. I expect that in a few more days, both tires will be fully leak proof. I'm retired, and have lots of time to play with my bikes. It just shouldn't be this hard and time consuming. I'm still hoping that some other manufacturers will produce a wide high volume, light weight supple tire like the BJ, which is truly tubeless ready.
... One day later: I've been storing my wheels and tires horizontal in my garage -- re-inflating to 50psi every time I happen to go through my garage. So far, they continue to improve. My front tire isn't losing any pressure over night; while the back is only leaking a few PSI. It's a real PITA to go through this process. I'm fortunate to have the time and interest to mess with this stuff. In retrospect, while I knew of the possible difficulties with tubeless mounting of the BJ's, I didn't expect it to be this difficult. Also, it remains to be seen, how frequently I'll have to refresh the sealant. If it becomes a monthly chore, then I'll likely install some Challenge latex tubes, or start shopping for another light weight, high performance tubeless ready tire.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #8 
Raining hard all day today. Nothing better to today than look at alternative tires, should I decide to replace my BJ's. I looked through the Schwalbe website to see if they offer anything comparable and came up with the new G-One Allround 700x35C MicroSkin TLEasy. The new G-One has a tight small knobby pattern similar to the GK SK, and is heavier than the BJ, but ticks off several categories on my needs list. I did a search of old posts on the G-One, but could find nothing about the new 2017 Allround model. I'm wondering how this tire compares to the BJ in terms of high speed performance, both on paved and unpaved roads. Anyone have any experience with these?
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ridemagnetic

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Reply with quote  #9 
bobknh, I've been riding the 650b version of the G-One Allrounds this year and they're great. I didn't want to like them because of the price but they are totally worth it. Pretty fast on paved roads for a lugged tire, and of course they really shine in gravel and dirt. For such shallow knobs they corner really nicely on any surface. My only complaint is Schwalbe's notoriously difficult beads to mount or remove. But, that extra effort makes for a really solid and leak free tubeless experience. 

Still want a slick or semi slick tire... Take a look at Maxxis Re-Fuse.
http://www.maxxis.com/catalog/tire-511-re-fuse-m200ru

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Wherever you find yourself is where you ought to be. ~ridemagnetic
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh
Raining hard all day today. Nothing better to today than look at alternative tires, should I decide to replace my BJ's. I looked through the Schwalbe website to see if they offer anything comparable and came up with the new G-One Allround 700x35C MicroSkin TLEasy. The new G-One has a tight small knobby pattern similar to the GK SK, and is heavier than the BJ, but ticks off several categories on my needs list. I did a search of old posts on the G-One, but could find nothing about the new 2017 Allround model. I'm wondering how this tire compares to the BJ in terms of high speed performance, both on paved and unpaved roads. Anyone have any experience with these?


It's the same tire, new naming scheme. I have used the 38/40 size (41mm on 21mm ID rims) this year. I run 27 front and 30 rear for true gravel. It absorbs well and runs smooth. Very easy tubeless setup and they have held air great since the first minute. There's really not much grip on loose stuff and they do not corner well. I would definitely consider one of the newly announced G-One Bite tires, especially up front.

One thing that kind of gets ignored around here is rolling resistance. Schwalbe usually has very fast tires. The 29x2.35 version of the G-One tire rolls faster than about any mountain bike tire. Schwalbe says the same rubber is used on the small versions. There's really no evidence that Panaracer has 'fast' tires. Maybe they do, but they don't, but they (and Compass) are definitely an unknown. It's hard to ignore a tire with great rolling speed and excellent tubeless capability like the G-One. Being able to run it as such low pressures really helps with the grip and comfort. They are definitely stronger than the Extralite Bon Jons and even though there's a 100 gram weight difference, it may be closer to a 50 gram difference since you only need the 2oz of sealant in the Schwalbes vs. the 4oz in the Bon Jons. One of my G-Ones held air perfectly for days without any sealant while the other got soft overnight.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #11 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle


It's the same tire, new naming scheme. I have used the 38/40 size (41mm on 21mm ID rims) this year. I run 27 front and 30 rear for true gravel. It absorbs well and runs smooth. Very easy tubeless setup and they have held air great since the first minute. There's really not much grip on loose stuff and they do not corner well. I would definitely consider one of the newly announced G-One Bite tires, especially up front.

One thing that kind of gets ignored around here is rolling resistance. Schwalbe usually has very fast tires. The 29x2.35 version of the G-One tire rolls faster than about any mountain bike tire. Schwalbe says the same rubber is used on the small versions. There's really no evidence that Panaracer has 'fast' tires. Maybe they do, but they don't, but they (and Compass) are definitely an unknown. It's hard to ignore a tire with great rolling speed and excellent tubeless capability like the G-One. Being able to run it as such low pressures really helps with the grip and comfort. They are definitely stronger than the Extralite Bon Jons and even though there's a 100 gram weight difference, it may be closer to a 50 gram difference since you only need the 2oz of sealant in the Schwalbes vs. the 4oz in the Bon Jons. One of my G-Ones held air perfectly for days without any sealant while the other got soft overnight.

Hey Dangle - thanks for the info. I'll put the G-One on my short list. I don't know if anyone has independently tested the RR on the Bon Jon's. They feel very fast to me, though. But, most of my miles on the BJ's were with Challenge Latex tubes. I've ridden both those latex tubed BJ's and tubeless 35 mm Gravel Kings on the same bike on the same paved and unpaved roads for comparison. In my very subjective testing, the BJ's feel considerably faster than the GK's. The GK's give me a bit more secure feel when things get soft and lose. I don't ride mud if I can avoid it. My guess is neither tire would do well in muddy or deep sand.
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh

Hey Dangle - thanks for the info. I'll put the G-One on my short list. I don't know if anyone has independently tested the RR on the Bon Jon's. They feel very fast to me, though. But, most of my miles on the BJ's were with Challenge Latex tubes. I've ridden both those latex tubed BJ's and tubeless 35 mm Gravel Kings on the same bike on the same paved and unpaved roads for comparison. In my very subjective testing, the BJ's feel considerably faster than the GK's. The GK's give me a bit more secure feel when things get soft and lose. I don't ride mud if I can avoid it. My guess is neither tire would do well in muddy or deep sand.


I hear what you're saying. Supple doesn't mean fast though. It's all about that rubber compound when talking rolling resistance.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridemagnetic
bobknh, I've been riding the 650b version of the G-One Allrounds this year and they're great. I didn't want to like them because of the price but they are totally worth it. Pretty fast on paved roads for a lugged tire, and of course they really shine in gravel and dirt. For such shallow knobs they corner really nicely on any surface. My only complaint is Schwalbe's notoriously difficult beads to mount or remove. But, that extra effort makes for a really solid and leak free tubeless experience. 

Still want a slick or semi slick tire... Take a look at Maxxis Re-Fuse.
http://www.maxxis.com/catalog/tire-511-re-fuse-m200ru

Thanks - see my edited post on the BJ's. They are getting better -- but the 40mm Re-fuse look like another good bet.
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chas

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle
One thing that kind of gets ignored around here is rolling resistance. Schwalbe usually has very fast tires. The 29x2.35 version of the G-One tire rolls faster than about any mountain bike tire. Schwalbe says the same rubber is used on the small versions. There's really no evidence that Panaracer has 'fast' tires. Maybe they do, but they don't, but they (and Compass) are definitely an unknown. It's hard to ignore a tire with great rolling speed and excellent tubeless capability like the G-One.


They have less rolling resistance than ANYTHING schwalbe makes, including their road race tires.  

I found them on sale (60mm 750b) and got them for my GF even though I wanted something much smaller for her.  

She is shocked at how fast her cheap mountain bike is.  Her top speed on her test stretch went from 18mph to 24mph!!!  I've set some PRs on these tires, and sometimes struggle to pedal slow enough to keep up with my mountain bike friends on gravel.  And this is on a heavy mountain bike from "Dicks sporting goods"

Now I want to buy a set for my gravel bike (35 or 40mm).  I've read about these, but was shocked to see how good they were - and shocked to ride a cheap mountain bike that at 10-15mph was as fast and easy to ride as my race bikes. 10watts per tire is incredibly efficient.

(at higher speeds the aero and weight would start to be a problem - its hard to tell for sure as the bike itself isn't a 25mph+ bike).
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chas


They have less rolling resistance than ANYTHING schwalbe makes, including their road race tires.  

I found them on sale (60mm 750b) and got them for my GF even though I wanted something much smaller for her.  

She is shocked at how fast her cheap mountain bike is.  Her top speed on her test stretch went from 18mph to 24mph!!!  I've set some PRs on these tires, and sometimes struggle to pedal slow enough to keep up with my mountain bike friends on gravel.  And this is on a heavy mountain bike from "Dicks sporting goods"

Now I want to buy a set for my gravel bike (35 or 40mm).  I've read about these, but was shocked to see how good they were - and shocked to ride a cheap mountain bike that at 10-15mph was as fast and easy to ride as my race bikes. 10watts per tire is incredibly efficient.

(at higher speeds the aero and weight would start to be a problem - its hard to tell for sure as the bike itself isn't a 25mph+ bike).

Thanks for the info. One of the reasons I liked the BJ's was that I could do group rides on pavement averaging in the 20+ mph range. But this experience with tubeless is turning me off to them. The G Ones may be what I'm looking for.
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nalax

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Reply with quote  #16 
For some tire / rim combos it also helps to go riding on new tubeless setups to help seal those slow leaks. Tubeless used to be much more time involved with ghetto tubeless, rimstrips, etc. It's easier now, but some tires just don't work well.
This year I've been playing around with WTB rims and tires, very compatible and problem free. I'm hoping to hear more about hookless rims and what their benefits might be.
Hey Bob, looking forward to the 44!
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carytb

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Reply with quote  #17 
I've got some Compass Jon Bon Pass tyres on my GT Grade and running them tubeless on Grail rims. They were my first attempt at tubeless and they went on a dream except I had difficulty seating one of them. No problem I thought just pump up the pressure I thought 90 psi should do it I thought. My ears were still ringing 2 days later and there is still latex all over the garage walls. They ride superbly and are really comfortable and lost no more air than a tubed set up.
I have had a strange problem though after a flood in our garage. After it had been dried out by massive industrial dehumidifiers the tyres started loosing pressure with initially sealant bubbling through the sidewalls. That has now abated but the tyres now seem to "sweat". The pressure loss has reduced though considerably.

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ReverendWrong

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Reply with quote  #18 
Another bump for the Schwalbe G-Ones. Mounted a pair of 700x35 Evo version in June and have been extremely impressed with how fast and quiet they roll on pavement and satisfied with their off-road performance as well. They feel as fast as the 25mm tires on my road bike (at least until I start climbing and the weight difference is obvious). I had a warranty issue where the casing separated on the front causing a substantial wobble, but Schwalbe customer service was great and promptly sent a replacement. I have had no issues since and only lose about 5 psi over a week. I think I might size up to the 37mm when I wear these out. 
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nalax
For some tire / rim combos it also helps to go riding on new tubeless setups to help seal those slow leaks. Tubeless used to be much more time involved with ghetto tubeless, rimstrips, etc. It's easier now, but some tires just don't work well.
This year I've been playing around with WTB rims and tires, very compatible and problem free. I'm hoping to hear more about hookless rims and what their benefits might be.
Hey Bob, looking forward to the 44!

My BJ's are improving. Not losing much pressure overnight. Picked up my 44 Huntsman last week. Did a couple of shake down rides to sort things out. Also, sorting out tubless issues with the BJ's on my new custom wheel set from Southern Wheel Works. Everything seems to be OK. Love the fit and feel of the bike. First serious ride tomorrow at the 3 Notch Century (40 mile option) up in North Conway. Good test for the Huntsman, and the BJ's. Over 3,000 ft. ascent in 40 miles. On pavement, though. I plan to put together a story with pictures on the Huntsman with Kris H's help. May take awhile - both Kris and I are busy. I post a few pic's here next week.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carytb
I've got some Compass Jon Bon Pass tyres on my GT Grade and running them tubeless on Grail rims. They were my first attempt at tubeless and they went on a dream except I had difficulty seating one of them. No problem I thought just pump up the pressure I thought 90 psi should do it I thought. My ears were still ringing 2 days later and there is still latex all over the garage walls. They ride superbly and are really comfortable and lost no more air than a tubed set up.
I have had a strange problem though after a flood in our garage. After it had been dried out by massive industrial dehumidifiers the tyres started loosing pressure with initially sealant bubbling through the sidewalls. That has now abated but the tyres now seem to "sweat". The pressure loss has reduced though considerably.


My BJ's are finally holding air pretty well. It shouldn't be this hard!
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jeredb

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Reply with quote  #21 
Maxxis Ramblers. They have tread, but they roll fast. Solid for mixed rides. I did my normal 20 mile fast flat road loop on them today and they were fine. Slower than my sector 28 tires, but much more Cush.

If I remember correctly the Ramblers took awhile to seal up 100%. Pumping up tires is easy and it ensures you have the pressure you want. 2 weeks and they will be sealed much better... probably.

I had old MTB tires where the sidewalks constantly were wet because so much seskant was weeping from them.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurichman
bobknh I just finished my first gravel race this weekend The Pony Express 120 but I opted for the 75 miler since I had little training in. From advice from local riders there I went with the Kenda Flintridge Pro 40 mm tubeless. I had little time to get use to them. I though they weren't as fast as my Clement MSO 40 mm on the road but then I was running the Clement with a tube and 50 lbs. psi and @ 200 lbs. on the Flintridge 40 lbs rear and 35 lbs front. It did take me awhile to get use to that 1/2 flat tire feeling of a tire coming from the roadie background. All I can say is those tires came thru flawless at that ride and it had everything including really sharp flint and any kind of rocks you could think of. I did pick my lines at times but at other times I didn't have to worry about where I threw the bike or made a pass. I have found y gravel tire as I am a happy camper/rider with those tires and the set up I ran.

Zman

Hey Zman - congrats on your first gravel race. I'll probably stick to non-competitive events myself. As I probably told you, I rode my first bike race in 1958 as a 15 year old Junior in NYC's Central Park -- my last in 2008 as a 65 year old Masters age group racer, with lots of races in between. Too many races those 50 years of competition. In flinty conditions I certainly wouldn't recommend the extra light BJ's - or even the standard casing. The side walls on these tires probably wont hold up. One nice thing about the BJ's though, is that they seem to roll just as fast at lower pressures as they do at higher. I run mine typically at 35/30 rear/front on both pavement and gravel. Compass claims that in their own tests, the BJ's don't lose RR over a wide range of pressure. Part of the reason is that a softer more supple tire like the BJ's, have less suspension loss over smaller bumps and irregularities. They don't bounce as much. The ironic thing, is that they may actually feel slower, because your brain interprets small high frequency vibration as going faster. Don't know if these claims are correct. But, I am able to hold my own in high speed group romps around Hilton Head Island in the winter with BJ's at 35/30 PSI. At that pressure they soak up most small bumps in the pavement, and corner like racing tubulars.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurichman
Hey bobknh This event was very low key. For some it was just to finish or beat previous year's times. I would guess that only the first 10-20 riders were racing it. It is a great event for sure and thanks for the praise.

The cool thing was I got a chance to talk to some veteran racers/riders and pick their brains on rides that they really like. The Tamland was a real sweetheart during the ride also. 

Zman

Glad you had such a good experience. I hope gravel racing stays that way. I just read a report on Gravel Cyclist on big time gravel stage race in Idaho. The report gave a sense of "big time" commercial involvement creeping in. Full SRAM factory support, recently retired pro cyclists (Ted King who rode in the TdF for Cannondale), splashy podiums etc. To be fair, the race did try to maintain a low key tone, with lots of local volunteers and activities. But, clearly, the main benefit was to improve summer tourism near Sun Valley, and to sell lots of stuff to us. Why does Ted King race in these events? Ridiculous?
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ReverendWrong

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Reply with quote  #24 
This discussion seems to have veered way off course from the original topic.
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReverendWrong
This discussion seems to have veered way off course from the original topic.


That's the Zurichman way.
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