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Lemon_grass

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Reply with quote  #1 
Hello-- I recently bought a new Diverge and had the shop, per their recommendation for a race tire, put a pair of tubleless tires on ( Tracer 38c) that I bought off of them.

Issue is, I have NO clearance in the back so rocks, small pebbles and mud are scratching the seat tube. I am a bit confused because this is well within what Specialized states it can fit (even if it swelled over the actual stated size).

What are folks running in the back of their Diverage and shouldn't the shop make this right since I dropped $55 on the tire plus the $$ for the tubeless conversion.

**Even before I ran it through the mud it barley had any clearance so the mechanic would are clearly seen this (see second photo before it had mud and pebbles on the tires).

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Pynchonite

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Reply with quote  #2 
The alloy version that you have has less clearance in the back than the carbon model that is normally reviewed and which most people, shop folks included, would know the tire clearance for.

Specialized has a love-it-or-leave-it program with their tires that you could take advantage of (https://www.specialized.com/us/en/faq) that would allow you to get your tire replaced with the 33mm version without provoking a full-blown customer service crisis (there is such a thing) with your IBD. 

My analysis as a retailist:
I would say that, normally, no, the shop wouldn't have to replace the tires.  Ethically, they probably should - and they probably would if you asked nicely because they want to have a good relationship with you.  If it had been something that wasn't compromised in the process of selling/installing it, then it wouldn't even be a thing - like returning a pair of pants with the tags on.  But that rear tire is now basically junk that can't be resold.  They weren't trying to trick you into anything because the shop just wants you to be happy with your new tires on your sweet-ass new bike.  There is evidently still some clearance, too, just not very much.  Thank goodness that Spesh has a capacious return/warranty policy, so that you can confidently tell them to replace it without having to test the values of your IBD.
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Pynchonite

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Reply with quote  #3 
Also, other than the clearance, how're you liking the Tracer?  Debating between those and Triggers for my gravel bike.  (The Triggers are magic, btw).
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Lemon_grass

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Reply with quote  #4 
Thanks for the info! Bad news is it appears the program is only for online buys:

"Should an item that was purchased through the online store fails to meet your expectations, we'll gladly accept its return within 30 days of the original purchase... Please note that this only applies to online store purchases from the United States store".

I wrote a very nice email explaining the situation, so I am hoping their customer service prevails. We have shopped there a lot so I am hoping for the best.

I only had the tire out for two rides because I didn't want any frame damage-- but I liked the grip and it accelerated pretty well. Only down side I noticed is when it was damp it collected a bit more debris (on the single track I was on in the woods) than I would like making it semi slick. When it was really wet there wasn't an issue as it shed the muck away.

Quick question for you-- would a 35mm be enough clearance or should I opt for 33mm (assuming the tires are true to size)?
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Pynchonite

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Reply with quote  #5 
LOL, should've kept reading.  I think that you did the right thing by emailing them.  Our rep has said in the past that Specialized will take back tires from customers who are dissatisfied with their purchase and they've always been good for it.

The golden rule is about 6mm on either side.  Depending on the inner width and outer width of the rim and the brand of the tire, 35mm would leave you plenty of room.  Some labelled 35mm tires blimp out a lot, for example Panaracer Gravel King SK's plump up from a labelled 35mm to 40mm on my 21mm inner width Stan's Crest rims.  The Specialized Trigger 33mm Pro tires that I ran awhile ago ran 36mm on those same rims.  So if you have >20mm inner width, running a 33mm tire might be the best way to go for you: no worries, plenty of clearance, and still fairly high volume.
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Lemon_grass

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Reply with quote  #6 
Thanks again!
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #7 
I don't know all the facts, but from what you say, and your pictures, the shop should never have let the bike leave the shop with that little tire clearance. Couldn't they see how tight the clearance was before they turned the bike over to you? After all they recommended and installed the tire. From your pictures, it looks like any minimal debris your tire picks up can cause damage to the frame -- or worse, a tire or wheel failure and possibly a crash. I'm amazed that any reputable shop would send out a bike in that condition.
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Pynchonite

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh
I don't know all the facts, but from what you say, and your pictures, the shop should never have let the bike leave the shop with that little tire clearance. Couldn't they see how tight the clearance was before they turned the bike over to you? After all they recommended and installed the tire. From your pictures, it looks like any minimal debris your tire picks up can cause damage to the frame -- or worse, a tire or wheel failure and possibly a crash. I'm amazed that any reputable shop would send out a bike in that condition.


Tires often continue to gain volume for awhile after they've been mounted, so they might not have filled out completely and the shop wouldn't have been the wiser.
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sabamacx

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Reply with quote  #9 
First gen or second refresh generation diverge?

The refreshed diverge should easily swallow 700x40c tyres.

The previous one could only really go out to 700x35c.
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Silver_Nettle

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Reply with quote  #10 
Pynchonite-- if you look at the second photo that is within a half hour of getting it back from the shop and the clearance was an issue even with brand new tires.

sabamacx-- it's a 2018. It has plenty of clearance on the sides, but not where tire rotates past the seat tube.

bobknh-- I agree they should never have let the bike leave the shop, it's absurd. And yes, it was causing pepples and such to rub the seat tube so much that I stopped to see what all the racket was.
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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #11 
Silver - I'm in the same camp as Bobknh...  IMO someone at the shop screwed up. They should have noticed the tight clearance and they should also know a new tire will typically stretch.  I generally go by the rule: Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity  (yes, I've made plenty of stupid mistakes myself and expect the same of others)

As Psychonite mentions 6mm is a good reference point but this will vary with the tire's tread and conditions. Knobby treads can pickup larger debris.  Typical gravel (low) tire pressures will allow the tire to deflect so an object shouldn't get lodged between the tire and frame, but it is going to chip and scratch the frame.  For riding in muddy conditions you might want to consider even more clearance.

One other note is that rim width does affect tire shape (both width and height).  From the very limited data I've seen, the construction of the tire plays into how a tire shape changes when moving from a narrow to a wide rim.

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Pynchonite

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoCoGreg
Silver - I'm in the same camp as Bobknh...  IMO someone at the shop screwed up. They should have noticed the tight clearance and they should also know a new tire will typically stretch.  I generally go by the rule: Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity  (yes, I've made plenty of stupid mistakes myself and expect the same of others)

As Psychonite mentions 6mm is a good reference point but this will vary with the tire's tread and conditions. Knobby treads can pickup larger debris.  Typical gravel (low) tire pressures will allow the tire to deflect so an object shouldn't get lodged between the tire and frame, but it is going to chip and scratch the frame.  For riding in muddy conditions you might want to consider even more clearance.

One other note is that rim width does affect tire shape (both width and height).  From the very limited data I've seen, the construction of the tire plays into how a tire shape changes when moving from a narrow to a wide rim.



That's a good point about rim width.  If the rim is narrower than the tire was designed for, you end up with a hot air balloon shape, narrower at the bottom and then curving outward and upward.  A wider rim might help with your seat tube clearance issues in the future (you know, when you decide to buy new rims for some reason) because it will spread the tire out more laterally and take some of the height off of it.  (I actually used this to the opposite when I had a Surly Karate Monkey, because the chainstays weren't wide enough for the 27.5+ tires that I was using unless I used a narrower-than-usual rim to give the tire more height and less width.  The lesson here is that you definitely can't go wrong with a 33mm and everything else is a kind of wait-and-see situation.)
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Volsung

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Reply with quote  #13 

IMO that shop owes you a different tire, touch up paint if necessary, and if the scrapes are that bad they owe you some free labor on stuff.  

If they make it a habit then you may need a different/better shop.  I had to leave my Specialized dealer because their mechanics consistently made things worse.

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Silver_Nettle

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Reply with quote  #14 
So the shop swapped out the old tires (38's) for the 2017 33c Tracer's (the block design).

The shop measured the new 2018 Tracer 38's and they blew up to 41.5, so FYI to folks with clearance issues.

I measured my 32's and they are at 35c as of last night. Not sure if they will grow anymore. This gives me about 5mm or so of clearance now.

I also noticed the seat tube has tire rub from the pebbles and mud and the paint is totally stripped down to the aluminum (about 2 -3 inches long).

Question-- will this compromise the frame at all or just purely cosmetic? The ride the rub happened on was 8 miles long. I plan to tape it up with some clear Lizard Skin I have at the house to prevent further damage.
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cobra_kai

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Reply with quote  #15 
Shouldn't compromise the frame. I would clean it and put some clear nail polish over the bare metal portion.
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Pynchonite

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Reply with quote  #16 
What he said.  You don't need to worry until you see divots in the aluminum itself.  The shop might have some touch-up paint, too, and if they do, then you'd certainly deserve some.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver_Nettle
So the shop swapped out the old tires (38's) for the 2017 33c Tracer's (the block design). The shop measured the new 2018 Tracer 38's and they blew up to 41.5, so FYI to folks with clearance issues. I measured my 32's and they are at 35c as of last night. Not sure if they will grow anymore. This gives me about 5mm or so of clearance now. I also noticed the seat tube has tire rub from the pebbles and mud and the paint is totally stripped down to the aluminum (about 2 -3 inches long). Question-- will this compromise the frame at all or just purely cosmetic? The ride the rub happened on was 8 miles long. I plan to tape it up with some clear Lizard Skin I have at the house to prevent further damage.

Hard to say if the frame is compromised. I'm not a metallurgist. I do know that sometimes even small cracks and dents can effect the long term safety of alu. alloy components. One thing to check however, is your Specialized warranty. I would document everything in a letter to Specialized, and request a written confirmation that your frame is still covered under their warranty. If not, IMHO, since the shop was responsible for the damage, you are entitled to a replacement frame, including labor to swap out components. If they refuse, well it's a hassle, but it may not be that difficult to take them to small claims court.
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NoCoGreg

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cobra_kai
Shouldn't compromise the frame. I would clean it and put some clear nail polish over the bare metal portion.

The seat tube doesn't see high stresses and certainly not in the area where there is little clearance between the ST and tire. The frame failures I've seen have been at or near joints or where mounts were improperly brazed on and the steel tubes were overheated.  Stresses are highest on the ends of a tube which is why tubes for better bikes will be thinner in the middle.

Aluminum does corrode but not like steel...  Water will form a aluminum oxide which will prevent future water corrosion.  Salt OTOH is much more reactive with aluminum. So as cobra recommended, a bit of clear nail polish (aka lacquer) will protect the aluminum.  Art and hobby stores carry small cans of lacquer spray as well as model paint. If you can find a close match with a colored nail polish that might look better and automotive stores have a wide selection of touchup paint which would also work fine.  I've heard of people taking their bike into stores to match colors... They used the excuse it was their wife's bike and she wanted matching nail polish. :-)   A vinyl decal/sticker will also seal and protect.  Lots of options.

Greg

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sgtrobo

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Reply with quote  #19 
look, if the bike shop recommended a set of tires that doesn't fit your bike, it's on the bike shop to make it right, without question.

There is absolutely no way they should've recommended a 38c tire for the alloy version.  No damned way.  It is well known that the alloy version has less clearance.  If your bike shop is an official Specialized reseller then they darn sure should know this. I'd be VERY wary of that bike shop in the future and if they do not replace the tire, free of charge, then take your money elsewhere in the future, and make sure you let them (And everybody in your area) know.  
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thegreatdelcamo

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Reply with quote  #20 
No way should the shop have let you ride out like that.
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sgtrobo

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Reply with quote  #21 
just tested my 2018 Diverge Expert.  Roval SLX24 wheelset with GravelKing SK 38c tires has a good fit with room for slop.  The tires themselves set up tubeless to a hair shy of 40mm
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Slim

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Reply with quote  #22 
I thought specialized states clearance for 42mm tires in the new Diverge?

Sgtrobo has good clearance in the Carbon version with 40mm tires, but Lemon_grass had far to little clearance with 41.5mm tires on the Alloy version right?

Shaping of the carbon vs the alloy frame is part of the issue, the carbon has a big cutout in the back of the seat tube.

But equally important might be frame size:

The smaller sizes have a slacker seat tube, so it leans back more towards the tire, and they also have shorter chain stays. Put together these two factors might seriously affect clearance in that spot relative to frame size.

@Sgtrobo what size do you have?
@Lemon_grass, what frame size do you have?
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thegreatdelcamo

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Reply with quote  #23 
Here are WTB 42s on 23.5 inner width rims. It’s tight. IMG_8796.jpg 
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Pynchonite

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatdelcamo
Here are WTB 42s on 23.5 inner width rims. It’s tight. IMG_8796.jpg 


A) Drop-dead sexy. B) Those are some wide-ass rims.

@Slim - it depends on whether you've got the alloy or carbon frame.  Alloy frame has clearance for about 35mm on 20mm-ish rims.  The carbon verson has clearance for 42mm on 20mm-ish rims or 47mm on 650B rims.
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thegreatdelcamo

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Reply with quote  #25 
Compare with 650b and 47s. Same brand and make of rim, just 650b. Lots more room, but oh boy do not pedal over rocks or around corners. This bike sits LOW. IMG_8757.jpg 
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