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bobknh

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In earlier postings there were discussions about the 35mm Compass Bon Jon's tubeless "compatibility" spec. It is important to note, that there are 2 versions of the BJ's - standard casing, and extra light casing. The extra light casing is actually the same material used in high end tubular racing tires. The standard casing is a bit heavier and less supple than the extra light. I've been riding the extra light BJ's with latex tubes for several thousand miles on my Swiss Cross at 30/35 psi with no flats. For my new 44 Bike Huntsman I decided to take a chance on a tubeless mounting of a new pair of extra light BJ's on my new HED Belgium + rims. Kris Henry of 44 Bikes was able to get them to seat - but required a compressor. There was some leakage on the front wheel. But, doing the "shake shake" plus several hours resting both sides of the wheel in a horizontal position sealed the tires to the rim. My conclusion is that while installing the BJ's tubeless is tricky, it is worth the effort. Here are some things to consider:
- If you plan to ride on rougher terrain, then the standard casing may be a better choice. Not only is the standard casing more resistant to damage from debris and  rocks, but because it is stiffer, will likely be easier to seat tubeless, and require less TLC to retain air.
- Definitely use a tubeless ready rim like the HED Belgiums.
- You'll probably need a compressor or special high volume pump or device to seat them.

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BrownDog

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Reply with quote  #2 
I have also found that I need to add sealant more often to my BJ's than other tubeless tires.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownDog
I have also found that I need to add sealant more often to my BJ's than other tubeless tires.

Hi B D - thanks for the input. I believe you also have the extra light version. That may be the reason for needing more frequent addition of sealant. . By gross weight , most of the sealant is volatile liquid that eventually evaporates in all tubeless tires; but perhaps more rapidly in tires with very thin casing like the Bon Jon. I guess it all depends on how frequently. I can live with every few months -- more frequent would become a big nuisance. I'd either switch back to latex tubes or perhaps to a tire with a less porous casing. Maybe even the Bon Jon wit standard casing. I have limited experience with gravel tires - Kenda Happy Medium, Maxxis Rambler, Panaracer Gravel King SK. Of the 4 tires I have some riding experience, the Bon Jon's are the fastest and best performing tires of the bunch.
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BrownDog

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Reply with quote  #4 
I do have the extra light. I use them for my road tires but I rarely do a ride that does not have some gravel/dirt. I love the tires but end up adding 2oz of sealant every four to six weeks. 
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #5 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrownDog
I do have the extra light. I use them for my road tires but I rarely do a ride that does not have some gravel/dirt. I love the tires but end up adding 2oz of sealant every four to six weeks. 

Thanks for the update. Like you, I'm delighted with my Bon Jon's performance. 4-6 week refresh on sealant may get old, though. If mine have to be refreshed after only 4 weeks, I'll probably install latex tubes, or look for another high performance 35mm gravel tire. BTW, if you are getting tired of having to inject more sealant every 4 weeks, then maybe using Challenge 28-35 mm latex tubes is a good alternative. I've been running Challenge latex with Bon Jon's for several thousand miles on my Swiss Cross, at 35/30 PSI without any problems - mostly on dirt and gravel roads. Unfortunately, the Challenge latex tubes cost about $19. You can buy a lot of Orange Seal or Stan's for $19.
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carytb

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Reply with quote  #6 
Did you detect any difference in ride quality with the latex tubes?

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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by carytb
Did you detect any difference in ride quality with the latex tubes?


Haven't ridden my tubeless very much - maybe 100 miles. Aside from the tubeless losing air too fast (a problem that seems to be fixed), I didn't notice any difference in the tires performance. Fast - tubeless, or with latex tubes.
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carytb

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Reply with quote  #8 
I might try some latex tubes then. Although they are good tubeless can be a bit of a faf.
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justaute

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Reply with quote  #9 
FWIW...my standard version of BJP seems to holding air pretty well. I think I'm losing maybe a couple of PSI per day. My pair are my first Compass tire experience, so a data-point of two. Also, have been paying attention to potential sidewall weeping issue -- none so far.

Out of all my tubeless tires (i.e. road/mtb/gravel/cx), these BJP were the toughest to mount in that the beads were quite tight. Still, just used my hands and a towel to mount them. Once mounted, the beads seated easily with my Lezyne Overdrive pump.

FYI...I put 2.0 oz and 2.5 oz of Orange Sealant in the front and rear tires, respectively. Will likely add another 0.5 oz to both in about a week.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justaute
FWIW...my standard version of BJP seems to holding air pretty well. I think I'm losing maybe a couple of PSI per day. My pair are my first Compass tire experience, so a data-point of two. Also, have been paying attention to potential sidewall weeping issue -- none so far.

Out of all my tubeless tires (i.e. road/mtb/gravel/cx), these BJP were the toughest to mount in that the beads were quite tight. Still, just used my hands and a towel to mount them. Once mounted, the beads seated easily with my Lezyne Overdrive pump.

FYI...I put 2.0 oz and 2.5 oz of Orange Sealant in the front and rear tires, respectively. Will likely add another 0.5 oz to both in about a week.

Thanks for the info. You are confirming my suspicion that the problem that I'm experiencing with my BJ's is due to the extra light casing. The extra light casing is the same material that Panaracer uses for their upscale tubular racing tires. Air is actually leaking right through the casing. However, the longer I've been riding and babying them, the ultra light BJ's are beginning to hold air pressure much better. Its a PITA. But, the payoff for patience is a great riding tire, which does everything I want it to do -- from dirt roads, easy double track trails, to high speed cornering on paved descents. Had I known in advance however, I would have set them up with latex tubes; or purchased the standard casing for tubeless.
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FestiveNoodle

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Reply with quote  #11 
I just want to second a standard casing Bon Jons. Last year with the extra-light casing, I had the same problems - it would lose too much pressure, sealant would seep through the casing. They rode really supple, but I had too many punctures.

This year I got regular casing, they sealed up right away and with 2 oz of sealant, they are holding up pretty well. It took them couple days to seal, but they were holding air pretty good after that. I have Stan's Grail rims and Orange Seal endurance sealant.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FestiveNoodle
I just want to second a standard casing Bon Jons. Last year with the extra-light casing, I had the same problems - it would lose too much pressure, sealant would seep through the casing. They rode really supple, but I had too many punctures.

This year I got regular casing, they sealed up right away and with 2 oz of sealant, they are holding up pretty well. It took them couple days to seal, but they were holding air pretty good after that. I have Stan's Grail rims and Orange Seal endurance sealant.

Thanks for info. My next pair of BJ's will have the standard casing. BTW - my BJ extra lights are holding air much better than a few days ago. Lots of babying and TLC -- not sure if it was worth the hassle.

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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #13 
Update- After a few hundred miles, tires are holding air very well. Took a lot of babying and TLC to make them work though. Not sure if it was worth it. Next time I'll probably buy the standard casing- or try the G-one that everyone seems to love. Also, I'm hoping that I don't have to add sealant every few weeks. 
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ljsmith

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh
Update- After a few hundred miles, tires are holding air very well. Took a lot of babying and TLC to make them work though. Not sure if it was worth it. Next time I'll probably buy the standard casing- or try the G-one that everyone seems to love. Also, I'm hoping that I don't have to add sealant every few weeks. 


They sound a lot like Schwalbe liteskin tires.  Those tires take forever to seal up  the sidewalls.   The G One uses microskin and will hold air with no sealant at all.
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thegreatdelcamo

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Reply with quote  #15 
My front extra light has had the leaking issue. The rear extra light has been rock solid. Using Stans. They are worth it (just ordered two more). This tire is amazingly supple and my bike just floats over undulations and big gravel with no sense that I’m slowed down by my low pressures (I run them at about 27psi front, 30 psi rear for gravel, and 45/50 for road). And I race them. These are not putzing-down-the-road tires. They are for going really fast. Sure they are fragile and temperamental. You just have to consider that you are running a Thoroughbred. With all the benefits they provide.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatdelcamo
My front extra light has had the leaking issue. The rear extra light has been rock solid. Using Stans. They are worth it (just ordered two more). This tire is amazingly supple and my bike just floats over undulations and big gravel with no sense that I’m slowed down by my low pressures (I run them at about 27psi front, 30 psi rear for gravel, and 45/50 for road). And I race them. These are not putzing-down-the-road tires. They are for going really fast. Sure they are fragile and temperamental. You just have to consider that you are running a Thoroughbred. With all the benefits they provide.

I agree with everything you say. None the less I still feel that Compass has been disingenuous in claiming that the the BJ's - both standard and extra light - are "Tubeless Compatible". If your, my, and several others tubeless experience with ultralight BJ's are typical, then Compass should be more informative about likely tubeless issues on their web site. Don't get me wrong, I like the extra light BJ's; but for future tubeless purchases, I'll likely go for something else.
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh

I agree with everything you say. None the less I still feel that Compass has been disingenuous in claiming that the the BJ's - both standard and extra light - are "Tubeless Compatible".


"Tubeless Compatible" refers to the bead design. 
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justaute

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Reply with quote  #18 
Based on my data-point of 1 (ok 2) -- a pair of standard BJP -- the tires seem fine as tubeless.

FWIW...bobknh, you can use "nonetheless" as one word. [smile]
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #19 
I haven't tried this yet, but with a new set of Compass tires it might be worth taking a small brush and painting on a thin sealant layer on the inside of the sidewalls, letting it dry before you mount them. Then you don't have to wait for it to slosh around and find the little pinholes.
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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #20 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
I haven't tried this yet, but with a new set of Compass tires it might be worth taking a small brush and painting on a thin sealant layer on the inside of the sidewalls, letting it dry before you mount them. Then you don't have to wait for it to slosh around and find the little pinholes.


Curious as to why there would be small pinholes in a new set of tires.

Zman

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If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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Zurichman

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh

I agree with everything you say. None the less I still feel that Compass has been disingenuous in claiming that the the BJ's - both standard and extra light - are "Tubeless Compatible". If your, my, and several others tubeless experience with ultralight BJ's are typical, then Compass should be more informative about likely tubeless issues on their web site. Don't get me wrong, I like the extra light BJ's; but for future tubeless purchases, I'll likely go for something else.


bobknh what set of tires would you go with then? At my end I thought it was a lot of bull when riders said that once you get a tire rolling it's no big deal. After doing my first gravel ride/race I would tend to agree with them. When I was at the Pony Express in Kansas I saw my fair share of flats from other riders but most were running what looked to be hybrid tires. At my end the Kenda Flintridge Pro's seem to be a great tire for the conditions and was recommended by local riders. In the beginning of the ride I was somewhat picky picking my lines. As the ride progressed I wasn't and just rode wherever I wanted to. I guess I probably could have been on a lighter tire. I don't know how this tire compares to others but they did give me piece of mind that I wouldn't have a flat and that works for me.

Zman

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If it was easy it wouldn't be a memory. You just hope you don't have all your memories in the same ride. been there dun that Zman
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ljsmith

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurichman


Curious as to why there would be small pinholes in a new set of tires.

Zman


Every material. if magnified large enough, has small holes in it.  Thin light rubber compounds used in lightweight tires will obviously be more porous than thick heavy tires.  When you use sealant on a tire (unless it is UST) you are sealing all these little holes in the rubber to make it airtight.  It is much more difficult to seal up thin lightweight tires.  This is the warning from the Schwalbe website about its liteskin tires:

NOTE: When converting light weight MTB racing tires to tubeless, the process can take up to 3 days of consistent sealing and sealant will seep from the sidewalls of the tires. LiteSkin MTB racing tires are inherently thin in the sidewalls and will require extra care.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljsmith


Every material. if magnified large enough, has small holes in it.  Thin light rubber compounds used in lightweight tires will obviously be more porous than thick heavy tires.  When you use sealant on a tire (unless it is UST) you are sealing all these little holes in the rubber to make it airtight.  It is much more difficult to seal up thin lightweight tires.  This is the warning from the Schwalbe website about its liteskin tires:

NOTE: When converting light weight MTB racing tires to tubeless, the process can take up to 3 days of consistent sealing and sealant will seep from the sidewalls of the tires. LiteSkin MTB racing tires are inherently thin in the sidewalls and will require extra care.

ljsmith - thanks for the useful info. In fact, that's exactly what happened with my extra light BJ's. They sealed up after about a week of babying them. Of course, as a relative newcomer to the world of tubeless; I was initially dismayed by all the problems. Still, it would have made my experience less stressful, had the folks at Compass provided more information about how to mount extra light BJ's tubeless; and what to expect. Just calling them "tubeless compatible" doesn't help very much. 
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Skldmark

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurichman


Curious as to why there would be small pinholes in a new set of tires.

Zman
As was referenced above UST tubeless tires initially had a thicker(heavier) casing. They did not require liquid sealant. Instead riders chose to "convert" existing lightweight tires to tubeless use. "Tubeless compatible" now means the bead is designed for tubeless rims,but sealing lightweight casings can take days.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skldmark
As was referenced above UST tubeless tires initially had a thicker(heavier) casing. They did not require liquid sealant. Instead riders chose to "convert" existing lightweight tires to tubeless use. "Tubeless compatible" now means the bead is designed for tubeless rims,but sealing lightweight casings can take days.

I'm glad I'm getting this education about the finer meaning of "tubeless ready" vs. "tubeless compatible". I guess "tubeless compatible" means that when your tire goes flat in the middle of nowhere one day, for no apparent reason, the tire wont roll off the rim; and you'll have one heck of a time removing it to put in a tube. But, you wont be able to sue the manufacturer. After all, the tire stayed on, and they never claimed that it would hold air without a tube.
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