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BrownDog

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Reply with quote  #26 
Update on these tires. Both were holding air good after using the advise at the beginning of this thread. Sunday I put 58 rear and 50 ft. Monday I checked before I road and had only lost 2 or 3 lbs. Today I went to ride and both had only 10lbs. I guess the sidewalls are that thin. I may change to orange seal.
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willawah

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Reply with quote  #27 
Some info for the record.  Picked some of the tubeless versions to try for gravel.  I tried to mount the tubeless versions on no less than 3 rims sets (Stans) which normally will mount up most tires.  They seemed a bit small in size as I barely could mount them they were so tight; I had to use levers to get both sides on the rim.  They then wouldn't seal to the rims with a compressor or pump, probably due to them being so tight.  Some have mentioned adding additional layers of tape, but I don't see how that will help set the tires.  I have some latex tubes I may try to get in them, but I also couldn't get normal tubes on the tires to try to seat them either.  A bit of a disappointment given the cost.  Have had better luck with Clement and picked up a pair of Strada USH to try next.
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chas

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Reply with quote  #28 
That makes sense.  Its a reflection of the tire design and construction having a different design goal than something like a "tubeless easy" tire.


That style tire tends to be hard to mount even with tubes.  When using that type tubeless I like to run it with tubes for a week to get them to set and make sure the bead is shaped.  Still, a floppy tire like that is hard to get in the right shape.

The stiff tight bead is really to ensure it doesn't blow off.  I have some Schwalbe "tubeless easy" tire that mount like you described.  After too much time sweating and cursing and breaking tire levers I gave up mounting them on one set of rims I had, as they just wouldn't go on.  

They made a tubeless version of this tire because people were asking for it, not because that is their design philosophy.  I think the only thing they did to make it tubeless is put that tight non stretching bead on it.    Still, they don't want you going above 60psi on their tires because of blow-offs.


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chas

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Reply with quote  #29 
This article rather explains their thoughts on the whole tubless myth...  ;-)

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Volsung

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Reply with quote  #30 
Jan Heine just likes taking contrarian positions to the rest of the bike industry.  I disregard 95% of what he says.
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #31 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chas
This article rather explains their thoughts on the whole tubless myth...  ;-)



Chas, if you spelled it that way because that's how Jan spelled it in his post, then kudos. If not, this just got awkward.

He references the Bicycle Rolling Resistance test, tells his readers to ignore one part of it because he disagrees with it, then without saying what the actual number was, he tells his readers that after adding 40ml of sealant the experiment showed, "the energy required to turn the wheel increases significantly." Significantly? What's the number Jan??

If you are familiar with the test, the actual increase in watts to spin is......not even watts. Or a whole watt. The difference is less than one watt. The entire article is about how sealant doesn't add much measurable rolling resistance and this is Jan's source for telling readers that it does? Maybe you can ignore the fact that he doesn't click spellcheck before clicking publish, but it's pretty hard to ignore how much bias is in his writing.

I am surprised to hear about the tubeless tires having tight beads now. The only tubeless ones I have run across had somewhat loose beads (compared to the WTB and Schwalbe I'm used to) and that's why I thought there were so many tubeless blow off stories circulating.

willawah, sometimes one way to get a very tightly beaded tire inflated is to loosen the valve stem and push it up between the beads into the tire's cavity. If the bead is sitting tightly on the valve stem, the air escape and it won't inflate. Pushing the valve stem into the tire allows the bead to sort of 'seal' with the rim better and the valve stem gets pushed into place during the inflation process. Then you tighten the nut and you're good to go. It's not a guarantee, but maybe something to try if you're out of options and can get enough grip on the valve stem to push it in there a little.

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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #32 
Remember, Stan's rims have an oversized bead seat compared to UST and TCS rims and there are many tires that won't mount easily on them. Adding more tape definitely won't help.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #33 
Having had many miles on my Bon Jon's with the extra light casing - both with latex tubes, and tubeless. Riding on pavement at high speed, and maintained unpaved roads; and after reading my own and other comments on this thread, I would summarize by saying that while the Bon Jon is a great all-around tire, it isn't for everyone or every riding condition.
As promised by Compass, this is a light weight, supple tire, that will perform very well both on and off pavement. While true to this promise however, there are some serious caveats. While the smooth tread of the Bon Jon's performs well on hard pack dirt ant gravel, if you hit softer dirt, mud, or sand of an inch or more, these tires don't hook up nearly as well as a tire like the Gravel King or Maxxis Ramblers I've used. I frequently encounter these conditions even on my maintained NH dirt roads when they've been graded. Believe me, you would much rather be on Gravel Kings in these situations. A second caveat, is that while the Bon Jon's are tubeless compatible, they are difficult to install tubeless, and require lots of sealant and TLC to plug all the micro holes in the casing. The Bon Jon's supple casing, which is its source of high performance, unfortunately makes tubeless installation much more difficult, and the sidewalls much more vulnerable to cuts from stones and road debris. Even if  you are lucky to avoid sidewall cuts, the flexing of the supple sidewall eventually causes the sidewall to deteriorate and break down - especially at lower tire pressures. Again, if you ride on rough terrain, or require high durability, then the Bon Jon isn't for you.
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #34 
Any other tire company would brand the Compass EL tires like "NANOLITE TURBOPRO RDO (race day only) TCS" and no one would complain.
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
Originally Posted by drwelby
Any other tire company would brand the Compass EL tires like "NANOLITE TURBOPRO RDO (race day only) TCS" and no one would complain.


I'm not disagreeing with your statement, but we have to be real about how Jan himself markets it. The description of Extralight tires straight from Jan's fingers doesn't remotely hint at any race day only, fragile, I warned you, type restrictions. It makes the EL version sound better in every way unless "If you are on a budget or ride on rocky trails a lot." and that "Both [versions] offer the same puncture resistance."

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/03/12/compass-tires-standard-vs-extralight/
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #36 
I dunno, it seems pretty clear from that blog post:

Quote:

  • Puncture resistance: Both versions use the same tread rubber and thickness, so the puncture resistance is comparable.
  • Sidewall cut resistance: If the Extralight casing has one drawback, it’s that the sidewalls may be easier to cut on sharp rocks.


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dangle

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Reply with quote  #37 
To me, there's a bit of a difference between 'race day only' and 'may be easier to cut sidewalls on sharp rocks.'

Maybe I'm looking at this from more of a TT background where I understand what a true race day only tire is.
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #38 
I'm not saying Jan is wrong about labelling the tire, just that other companies would be more cautious and/or throw in extra buzzwords because there's money in selling you less for more. I think my comment is more about marketing to the racing segment. It's interesting to see how you market what could be sold as a racing product to a crowd that rejects racing.

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willawah

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Reply with quote  #39 
Yes dangle thanks for the advice, i had to remove the stem just to mount the tires on the rim in the first place; just not enough stretch on these boys.  The last tire that was this difficult was the WTB Cross Boss and I actually put them in a low temp oven to get them on the rims.  But after hitting them with the compressor they popped right into place. which is what i was expecting with the Compass'.  The WTB's were one of the best tires in recent memory for me to run at low pressure with my weight because they just didn't pop off the rim although they seeped on the sidewall quite a bit.

I recently had Panaracer Gravel Kings (38 mm) mounted on the same rims and they mounted up great, but I barely had enough clearance on the bike and they began rubbing in the middle of the first spring gravel race.  The Clement Strada USH showed up today, so plan to mount and ride this weekend if the snow doesn't get too deep.  As someone said, my name is willawah and I have a tire problem; but don't tell the wife.
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #40 
If you continue on the Stans route, going to a single wrap of tape and buying a Kool Stop bead jack will make life easier.

You think that you have a problem now? Wait till you have wheels to match all those tires!
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