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BrownDog

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Reply with quote  #1 
I put a new set of tubeless ready Bon Jon's on a set of I9-I25's. Two wraps of stans tape and 2 oz of stans in each. Both set up easy but the ft one is losing air, down to 10psi in about 6 hours. I do not see any sealant leaks. Should I take it apart and start over? Any suggestions are welcome.

Thanks 
Scott
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RoverAl

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Reply with quote  #2 
Leaks in tubeless tires come from these 5 areas. Rim bead,Tread, Spoke holes, Valve stem or Valve.

First spray or smear a soapy solution around the tire bead where the rim meets the rubber.
Check and see if you have bubbly leaks.

If you have soapy bubbles around rim dry tire,fill with air to recommended psi shake and spin the wheel to distribute the sealant then put it flat on a bucket or similar  so the axles are pointing at the ground and let sit for a half hour then flip shake repeat other side. It might take longer to allow to seal.

If no soapy bubbles around tire fill a tub with water enough to cover spokes and dunk tire and slowly rotate looking for leak bubbles.

If bubbles come from valve stem or valve tighten and check again.
If bubbles come from spokes holes then there is a breach in the tape.

In my experiences the bubble have come from around the rim. Sometimes a quick ride around the block helps seat the tire sometimes it needs to set up on the bucket for awhile.
With a leak like yours you should be able to spot it using above.

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ljsmith

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Reply with quote  #3 
Tubeless tires with thin sidewalls can take a long time to get sealed up.  The best thing is to do the "Stans shake" and then lay it on its side for 24 hours. While its laying on its side, periodically check the pressure during the day, and refill with air if needed to make sure there is enough pressure to push sealant into all the tiny pores in the tire. Then repeat for the other side.  I have used this to seal some of the toughest tires, like Schwalbe liteskin which are notoriousy hard to seal.  
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BrownDog

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Reply with quote  #4 
Thanks for the info. I will work on it tomorrow.

Scott
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #5 
My experience with Compass tires is that the supple sidewalls are quite porous. You might need to toss in another 2oz of sealant and leave the wheels on their sides for 15 minutes. As mentioned upthread some soapy water in a spray bottle is your friend here, you'll know instantly if the sidewalls are actually the problem.
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BrownDog

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Reply with quote  #6 
Last night I added 2oz more of Stans. Did the "Stans Shake" and left the wheel over a bucket. This morning pressure is still good. Seems to have worked. Just for good measure I did the Stans Shake again this morning and put it back over the bucket on the other side. Going to leave it today just for good measure.
Thanks
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Jeb

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Reply with quote  #7 
My experience with Compass tires is that the supple sidewalls are quite porous. You might need to toss in another 2oz of sealant and leave the wheels on their sides for 15 minutes. As mentioned upthread some soapy water in a spray bottle is your friend here, you'll know instantly if the sidewalls are actually the problem.


Doesn't the need to seal the porous sidewall negate the benefit of it being supple ?
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ljsmith

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb



Doesn't the need to seal the porous sidewall negate the benefit of it being supple ?


No, because the sealant doesn't add any thickness to the sidewalls or change how supple they are.  And running with a tube is going to result in a much stiffer sidewall with higher rolling resistance then running tubeless, so its really a moot point.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeb
My experience with Compass tires is that the supple sidewalls are quite porous. You might need to toss in another 2oz of sealant and leave the wheels on their sides for 15 minutes. As mentioned upthread some soapy water in a spray bottle is your friend here, you'll know instantly if the sidewalls are actually the problem.


Doesn't the need to seal the porous sidewall negate the benefit of it being supple ?


Interesting. I've been thinking of trying the Bon Jon's for the dirt and gravel roads I ride in south central NH. The Bon Jon's are the only "tubeless ready" 700C tires in the Compass catalog. I also suspect that these tires are actually manufactured by Panracer in Japan for Compass -- an American company with strong Japanese ties. If so, I'm wondering if the Bon Jon's carcass material is the same or similar to Panracers GK tubeless? In that case, they may just be the GK's with a smother tread. I, and other posters, have had very good results mounting the GK Tubeless with Orange Seal Endurance sealant. Any thoughts?

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ljsmith

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Reply with quote  #10 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh


Interesting. I've been thinking of trying the Bon Jon's for the dirt and gravel roads I ride in south central NH. The Bon Jon's are the only "tubeless ready" 700C tires in the Compass catalog. I also suspect that these tires are actually manufactured by Panracer in Japan for Compass -- an American company with strong Japanese ties. If so, I'm wondering if the Bon Jon's carcass material is the same or similar to Panracers GK tubeless? In that case, they may just be the GK's with a smother tread. I, and other posters, have had very good results mounting the GK Tubeless with Orange Seal Endurance sealant. Any thoughts?



Compass tires are manufactured by Panaracer. I believe the Gravel King, Pari Moto and the Compass tires all share the same casing with similar tread designs.
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BrownDog

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Reply with quote  #11 
Bobknh - 

I got these tires to be my primary road tires so I can add some gravel/dirt sections into my road rides. If I go out to ride gravel/dirt only I am going to ride GK40's. So far I have liked these tires. I have been playing with air pressure and have not settled on the perfect pressure for me. Primarily in my area non paved roads are sand. These tires have worked great on the sand roads. Now that everyone has helped me stop the air loss I am very happy with them.

Scott
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drwelby

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Reply with quote  #12 
Orange Seal seems to last longer in the Compass Tires.

The GKs are probably a heavier casing, and definitely have more rubber in the sidewalls.
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljsmith
Compass tires are manufactured by Panaracer. I believe the Gravel King, Pari Moto and the Compass tires all share the same casing with similar tread designs.


Thanks for the info. I'm lovin' my 35 mm GK TR's. The Bon Jon's may be my ultimate (dangerous word for someone as fickle as me) do everything tire.
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chas

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljsmith


No, because the sealant doesn't add any thickness to the sidewalls or change how supple they are.  And running with a tube is going to result in a much stiffer sidewall with higher rolling resistance then running tubeless, so its really a moot point.


Not actually, according to specific tests done on the subject.  Using latex sealant has rolling resistance between that of a bytle tube and a latex tube.  If you really want the lowest rolling resistance, latex inner tubes are the winner.   A light Butyl tube is still better than tubeless, and tubless is  slightly better than using a standard size Butyl tube.

Still, we are talking about a spread of 2 watts here, so its not something I lose a lot of sleep over.

Now, if you are talking mountain bike or fat bike, the benefits of going tubeless start to add up
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chas


Not actually, according to specific tests done on the subject.  Using latex sealant has rolling resistance between that of a bytle tube and a latex tube.  If you really want the lowest rolling resistance, latex inner tubes are the winner.   A light Butyl tube is still better than tubeless, and tubless is  slightly better than using a standard size Butyl tube.

Still, we are talking about a spread of 2 watts here, so its not something I lose a lot of sleep over.

Now, if you are talking mountain bike or fat bike, the benefits of going tubeless start to add up


Thanks for interesting comments. I too am a big fan of latex tubes. I'm currently running Vittoria 25-28mm Latex tubes with my Conti 4000 II S tires. I can run them at around 70-80 PSI on paved roads, and maintained dirt and gravel roads. I've been unable however, to find any larger size latex tubes to run with larger road/dirt tires like the Bon Jon's. The only larger latex tubes I could find were made by Challenge for CX racing. I read a number of very negative reviews on the reliability, durability, and quality of these tubes. They also seem to be hard to find and may be out of production. I've been thinking of running the Vittoria 25-28 with the 35 mm Bon Jon's at around 60 PSI. Any thoughts or suggestions? Compass suggest using Schwalbe Light Butyl tubes; but I've had some bad experiences in the past with light butyl tubes from other manufacturers.
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ronpal

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Reply with quote  #16 
I've been using Challenge SL Latex tubes for a few years now and am really happy with them.  They make a 700x28/35 that I use with larger tires up to 700x45 without issues.  I find the Challenge latex tubes a bit thicker then the Michelin latex tubes that I use on my road bike with 700x25 tires, and consequently they hold air better then the Michelins.  I've had no durability or reliably issues, and the only flats I've had have been pinch flats when I've hit larger rocks really hard while going fast and with very low air pressure on gravel.  They are not cheep but I enjoy the ride.  I usually order them from Bikeman.com
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ljsmith

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Reply with quote  #17 
I'd like to dispel the myth that using a latex tube has lower rolling resistance than tubeless.  Just think about what you are saying.  You are saying that adding a tube magically lowers the rolling resistance of a tire.  I have seen tests that claim this.  However, they are typically comparing a normal clincher to a tubeless tire, so not an apples to apples comparison.  The regular clincher has a thinner casing, so it is not even the same construction as the tubeless tire.  For instance I saw a comparison of Schwalbe One non-tubeless with a latex tube having lower RR than a tubeless Schwalbe One.  So they are comparing the same tread and compound, but different casings.  The thicker tubeless casing of most tubeless road tires increases RR.  In fact the original Schwalbe One tubeless tire was so thick that Schwalbe said you could not use a tube with it.  But I'll make this simple, for any given tire running it tubeless will have lower rolling resistance than using latex tube.  Having an extra layer of rubber from a tube, whether it be butyl or latex increases rolling resistance, there just isn't any way around that.  I also would not be surprised if the newer generation of tubeless tires, such as Schwalbe Microskin would be able to go head to head with a normal clincher with a latex tube.  Schwalbe  claims its microskin tires when run tubeless are the fastest tires they have ever made.  
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronpal
I've been using Challenge SL Latex tubes for a few years now and am really happy with them.  They make a 700x28/35 that I use with larger tires up to 700x45 without issues.  I find the Challenge latex tubes a bit thicker then the Michelin latex tubes that I use on my road bike with 700x25 tires, and consequently they hold air better then the Michelins.  I've had no durability or reliably issues, and the only flats I've had have been pinch flats when I've hit larger rocks really hard while going fast and with very low air pressure on gravel.  They are not cheep but I enjoy the ride.  I usually order them from Bikeman.com

Thanks for the info. I found the reviews of the Challenge Latex elsewhere very mixed. But I suspect that many of the negative reviews were from folks that were not familiar with latex tube installation and maintenance. I've had similar positive results with the the Vittoria's and 28mm Conti 4000 II S's. For the type of riding I do -- mixed paved and maintained dirt and gravel roads, I think that a 32 mm Compass tire with the Challenge latex tubes might be a perfect solution. Same as my 28 mm Conti + Vittoria - just wider and lower pressure. I still have a wheel set with 35 mm GK tubeless for rougher stuff or mud.
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goneskiian

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh
The Bon Jon's are the only "tubeless ready" 700C tires in the Compass catalog. I also suspect that these tires are actually manufactured by Panracer in Japan for Compass -- an American company with strong Japanese ties. 

Not true. The Snoqualmie Pass (700 X 44) is also tubeless ready. I used a pair for a gravel race here in Washington last fall. They were awesome.

Also, as ljsmith stated, Compass tires are most definitely made by Panaracer. I'm sure there are other references but here is a blog post where he visits the Panaracer factory and clearly states that they make the tires for them.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/02/21/visiting-panaracer/

Cheers!
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chas

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Reply with quote  #20 
True in many cases.  Certainly putting a tube in a tire increases friction and rolling resistance.

I don't think Compass specifically makes a different casing.  As I understand it, they are making a different bead to hook into a tubeless wheel better (since many people were trying to run it tubeless and having the tire blow off).

I agree - schwalbe makes some impressive tires.  With the latest generation of road tires getting in the realm of 10 watts of rolling resistance, I'm impressed (compared to 25-30 watts for a typical gravel tire)

either way, its just a couple of watts.  I'm not loosing sleep over it.

(personally I'm more concerned about tires with stiff sidewalls that are stiff and slow.  My winter tires are ultra reliable, but boy are they amazingly slow)



Quote:
Originally Posted by ljsmith
I'd like to dispel the myth that using a latex tube has lower rolling resistance than tubeless.  Just think about what you are saying.  You are saying that adding a tube magically lowers the rolling resistance of a tire.  I have seen tests that claim this.  However, they are typically comparing a normal clincher to a tubeless tire, so not an apples to apples comparison.  The regular clincher has a thinner casing, so it is not even the same construction as the tubeless tire.  For instance I saw a comparison of Schwalbe One non-tubeless with a latex tube having lower RR than a tubeless Schwalbe One.  So they are comparing the same tread and compound, but different casings.  The thicker tubeless casing of most tubeless road tires increases RR.  In fact the original Schwalbe One tubeless tire was so thick that Schwalbe said you could not use a tube with it.  But I'll make this simple, for any given tire running it tubeless will have lower rolling resistance than using latex tube.  Having an extra layer of rubber from a tube, whether it be butyl or latex increases rolling resistance, there just isn't any way around that.  I also would not be surprised if the newer generation of tubeless tires, such as Schwalbe Microskin would be able to go head to head with a normal clincher with a latex tube.  Schwalbe  claims its microskin tires when run tubeless are the fastest tires they have ever made.  
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bobknh

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneskiian

Not true. The Snoqualmie Pass (700 X 44) is also tubeless ready. I used a pair for a gravel race here in Washington last fall. They were awesome.

Also, as ljsmith stated, Compass tires are most definitely made by Panaracer. I'm sure there are other references but here is a blog post where he visits the Panaracer factory and clearly states that they make the tires for them.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/02/21/visiting-panaracer/

Cheers!

Yes- I didn't see it in the catalog. I'm probably going to try the Bon Jon's with Orange Seal. Hope they are as good as my 35 mm GK's.
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goneskiian

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobknh

Yes- I didn't see it in the catalog. I'm probably going to try the Bon Jon's with Orange Seal. Hope they are as good as my 35 mm GK's.

Oh right. I forgot that it was a new addition for them pretty late last summer.

I used mine set up tubeless with Orange Seal too. I should have been running a bit more pressure for my ride as there were some really rough bits on a descent (large imbedded rocks exposed by a recent grading) and I bottomed both the front and rear. I probably should have slowed down a bit too but what fun is that? ;-) Both started leaking a bit so I stopped to get them to seal and topped them off and they held for the rest of the race just fine.
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Volsung

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Reply with quote  #23 
Compasses use a similar tread but different casing.  I read somewhere that they're not even 120 TPI, but you'd never notice it.  The sidewalls are practically see through so they are super supple.  I've been running the Snoqualmies since last September and have had 1 puncture, 1 cut from glass, and now one's delaminating.  Not a huge deal but kind of annoying.  It's probably all luck and I had better luck with my Barlows.

How's the width on your 25mm internal rims?  My Snoqualmies are almost 42 on 20s and almost 45 on 25s.
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BrownDog

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Reply with quote  #24 
The width with the Bon Jon Pass's on the I9's is 37mm
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Dodger

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Reply with quote  #25 
I mounted BJPs today as a road tire. Holding pressure with Orange Seal Endurance but I've definitely shaken and rotated. On HED Belgium + they measure right at 35mm. Looking to ride either tonight or tomorrow. Need to figure out pressure. Will update as appropriate.
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