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mikeyjp

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Reply with quote  #1 
Have a Jamis Renegade and love the bike. Came with Shimano Tiagra 10spd.
Looking for more chain tension to reduce chain slap. Someone recommended a older 9spd XT derailleur.

Any other recommendations without changing the whole drivetrain.
Thank you
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BluesDawg

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Reply with quote  #2 
If it is Tiagra 4600, that will work. But the new 4700 Tiagra is not compatible with any other group.
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AlanEsh

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Reply with quote  #3 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluesDawg
If it is Tiagra 4600, that will work. But the new 4700 Tiagra is not compatible with any other group.

What's incompatible? Just curious, educate me [smile]
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PoolBoyMatt

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Reply with quote  #4 
Tiagra 4700 is it's very own thing. The 4700 shifter and rear der only work together. They are not cross compatible with other pieces of 10 speed.

The trick of running 9 speed XT with 10 speed road shifters only works with the other 10 speed shimano shifter.

So if you have 4700 - you are running 4700 only.
If you have any other 10 speed Shimano bits, they are all intermixable, including the 9 speed XT substitute rear der.
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PMC

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Reply with quote  #5 
My understanding is the 10 speed 4700 has the same cable pull as 11 speed Shimano, just with 10 gears.  This would lead me to believe you could put an 11 speed XT or XTR derailleur with a Wolftooth Tanpan on it.  You could keep your 10 speed and get your clutch derailleur with those two parts.
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mikeyjp

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Reply with quote  #6 
How can I confirm this? That would be awesome

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMC
My understanding is the 10 speed 4700 has the same cable pull as 11 speed Shimano, just with 10 gears.  This would lead me to believe you could put an 11 speed XT or XTR derailleur with a Wolftooth Tanpan on it.  You could keep your 10 speed and get your clutch derailleur with those two parts.
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mikeyjp

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Reply with quote  #7 
The WolfTooth website says the Tanpan doesn't work with Tiagra 4700
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PMC

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Reply with quote  #8 
Interesting, good thing you checked.  I should have mentioned double checking before ordering but good work for covering that.

Edit - I'll add that I'm really surprised it doesn't work as a whole slew of people have used 11 speed 105 and Ultegra rear derailleurs with the 4700 shifters and have had great luck. Comments are that it's 100% compatible.
Edit#2 - If you go to Universal Cycles, it specifically calls out the 10 speed Tanpan as not working with 4700.  I'm betting if you called Wolf tooth you may get a different answer as I don't see how 11 speed pull is any different on the 4700 other than one less click.
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mikeyjp

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Reply with quote  #9 
So the 105 and Ultegra derailleurs work with the 4700?
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PMC

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Reply with quote  #10 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyjp
So the 105 and Ultegra derailleurs work with the 4700?

5800/6800/R8000/9000 and now 9100 will all work, the derailleurs share the same pull as the 4700 derailleurs.  The difference is that the shifter pulls a different amount than other 10 speed, in that it pulls the amount of cable for a standard 10 speed spaced cassette while using an 11 speed derailleur.

 

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mikeyjp

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Reply with quote  #11 
Would a 6800 make a difference in shifting and chain tension?
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ljsmith

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Reply with quote  #12 
An older 9 speed XT rear derailleur isn't going to have more tension.  One some derailleurs you can take the cage off and move the spring to a second hole which will increase the tension slightly.  


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Skldmark

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMC
Interesting, good thing you checked.  I should have mentioned double checking before ordering but good work for covering that.

Edit - I'll add that I'm really surprised it doesn't work as a whole slew of people have used 11 speed 105 and Ultegra rear derailleurs with the 4700 shifters and have had great luck. Comments are that it's 100% compatible.
Edit#2 - If you go to Universal Cycles, it specifically calls out the 10 speed Tanpan as not working with 4700.  I'm betting if you called Wolf tooth you may get a different answer as I don't see how 11 speed pull is any different on the 4700 other than one less click.

You would lose your bet. The 4700 rear shifter works wth 11 speed rear derailleurs to produce cable travel/derailleur travel matched for shimano 10 speed cassette cog spacing (2.35mm). 11 speed cog spacing is narrower, 2.18mm.
It's like the 4700 shifter already has a "tanpan".
(The 4700 rear derailleur is like current 11speed rear derailleurs)
This pull/leverage ratio of the 11 speed rear derailleur makes it incompatible with all the other non-4700 10 speed gear.
OP all I got is to get the chainstay padded/protected and if you keep pedaling, even moderately, the chain is under tension and won't jump around like it will when you're not pedaling.
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #14 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyjp
Have a Jamis Renegade and love the bike. Came with Shimano Tiagra 10spd. Looking for more chain tension to reduce chain slap. Someone recommended a older 9spd XT derailleur. Any other recommendations without changing the whole drivetrain. Thank you


Before Frankenstening a drivetrain, there's a decent chance you can increase the tension with just a screwdriver and hex key. All of the current Shimano Ultegras and 105's allow for it. I don't have a Tiagra 4700 rear derailleur to play with, but the Shimano tech document suggests it's possible. There's two different tension settings on the rear derailleur and they ship in the 'low' tension setting.

Go to the Shimano section of this article and go through step 7. http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/rear-derailleur-overhaul#article-section-3 It's a 5 minute job that doesn't cost a thing. At the worst, your derailleur doesn't have that 'high' tension setting and you wasted 5 minutes.

I have done dozens of cyclocross races, lots of gravel riding/racing and mucho singletrack with Shimano road rear derailleurs in the high tension setting and don't have any issues with chain drops or chain slap.
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Skldmark

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle


Before Frankenstening a drivetrain, there's a decent chance you can increase the tension with just a screwdriver and hex key. All of the current Shimano Ultegras and 105's allow for it. I don't have a Tiagra 4700 rear derailleur to play with, but the Shimano tech document suggests it's possible. There's two different tension settings on the rear derailleur and they ship in the 'low' tension setting.

Go to the Shimano section of this article and go through step 7. http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/rear-derailleur-overhaul#article-section-3 It's a 5 minute job that doesn't cost a thing. At the worst, your derailleur doesn't have that 'high' tension setting and you wasted 5 minutes.

I have done dozens of cyclocross races, lots of gravel riding/racing and mucho singletrack with Shimano road rear derailleurs in the high tension setting and don't have any issues with chain drops or chain slap.
. Changed the derailleur cage tension by moving the spring on a Tiagra 4500/9speed- sure is firm now. No test ride yet. The two holes are in the inner derailleur cage (not inside the derailleur body where I was looking.








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dangle

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Reply with quote  #16 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skldmark
. Changed the derailleur cage tension by moving the spring on a Tiagra 4500/9speed- sure is firm now. No test ride yet. The two holes are in the inner derailleur cage (not inside the derailleur body where I was looking.


Thanks for being willing to try it. It makes a world of difference with the Shimano road derailleurs. Sorry for thinking you were on 4700, my mistake.
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Skldmark

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyjp
Have a Jamis Renegade and love the bike. Came with Shimano Tiagra 10spd.
Looking for more chain tension to reduce chain slap. Someone recommended a older 9spd XT derailleur.

Any other recommendations without changing the whole drivetrain.
Thank you
I changed spring tension in the derailleur cage pivot per Dangle's recommendation and it looks promising. The two holes are located in the inner derailleur cage plate. My 4500/9 speed was easily accessible.
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AlanEsh

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dangle

Go to the Shimano section of this article and go through step 7. http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/rear-derailleur-overhaul#article-section-3 It's a 5 minute job that doesn't cost a thing. At the worst, your derailleur doesn't have that 'high' tension setting and you wasted 5 minutes.

I wish I had read this prior to shredding my derailleur a couple weeks ago due to chain slap while riding on some really ugly washboard. Thank you for this info!!
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Brennus

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Reply with quote  #19 

QUESTION: Can I Use 9-Speed Derailleurs with 10-Speed Shifters?

Say you’re upgrading on a budget and can replace a few parts at a time and still have a perfectly functional set of 9-speed derailleurs. Can you use them with 10-speed shifters and gearing? We got this question from a reader, so we turned it over to the heavy hitters in the mountain bike drivetrain category, SRAM and Shimano. Here’s what they had to say regarding mountain bike drivetrains:

MORGAN @ SRAM: For the rear, no. The cable pull is different for the 10-speed rear derailleurs and the 9-speed rear derailleurs won’t line up properly with the cogs when used with a 10-speed shifter and cassette. A 9-speed front derailleur will work, but it’s not optimized and may result in more chain drops or slower shifting -or no shifting at the extreme ends of the cassette- because the gap between plates is larger than what’s required for a 10-speed chain. The cage is also shorter if you’re viewing it from the side because it doesn’t have to work with as large of a chainring as what’s typically found on a triple.

JOE @ SHIMANO: Not really. Anything with Mega9 on it was designed to work together as a 9-speed system, and anything with DynaSys on it is 10-speed only. The cable pull ratio is different. The 10-speed stuff pulls a lot more cable, and the lever arm on the rear derailleur is much longer. We designed it this way so when you do your shifts from the smallest cog all the way up, the lever feel is the same all the way through the range. Also, the 9-speed was more of a universal system, too, but the DynaSys is an exclusive mountain bike system.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2011/10/19/question-can-i-use-9-speed-derailleurs-with-10-speed-shifters/

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dangle

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Reply with quote  #20 
Brennus, what does an old article about mountain bike shifting have to do with this conversation?
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Brennus

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Reply with quote  #21 
Brennus, what does an old article about mountain bike shifting have to do with this conversation?

At the top of this thread I read the following text:

"Have a Jamis Renegade and love the bike. Came with Shimano Tiagra 10spd.
Looking for more chain tension to reduce chain slap. Someone recommended a older 9spd XT derailleur.
"

After reading that I posted some text from Shimano and SRAM regarding using 9 speed derailleurs with 10 speed shifters.  The intent of that post was to provide some credible information regarding the combination of 9 speed derailleurs with 10 speed shifters.  Hopefully this will encourage folks who want to use that combination of shifter/derailleur to not do so.
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dangle

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Reply with quote  #22 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brennus
Brennus, what does an old article about mountain bike shifting have to do with this conversation?

At the top of this thread I read the following text:

"Have a Jamis Renegade and love the bike. Came with Shimano Tiagra 10spd.
Looking for more chain tension to reduce chain slap. Someone recommended a older 9spd XT derailleur.
"

After reading that I posted some text from Shimano and SRAM regarding using 9 speed derailleurs with 10 speed shifters.  The intent of that post was to provide some credible information regarding the combination of 9 speed derailleurs with 10 speed shifters.  Hopefully this will encourage folks who want to use that combination of shifter/derailleur to not do so.


I'm tracking, but there's two problems:

1) That article is entirely about mountain bike shifters. We're talking road shifters here.

2) A 9 speed Shimano XT rear derailleur will work well enough with 10 speed Shimano road shifters. There's really no reason to do that unless you need a mega range. I don't feel like the spring/cage tension is any better than a Shimano road rear derailleur in the high tension setting. The cable pull is a teeny bit less than the 9 speed it was intended to work with, but if you set it to work perfectly in the middle of the cassette, it will still shift to both the lowest and highest gears. It's not perfect, but many people have done it without too much complaining. I agree with the linked article that it won't even be close to working correctly if you pair a 10 speed Shimano mountain shifter with a 9 speed Shimano mountain derailleur.
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PMC

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Reply with quote  #23 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brennus
Brennus, what does an old article about mountain bike shifting have to do with this conversation?

At the top of this thread I read the following text:

"Have a Jamis Renegade and love the bike. Came with Shimano Tiagra 10spd.
Looking for more chain tension to reduce chain slap. Someone recommended a older 9spd XT derailleur.
"

After reading that I posted some text from Shimano and SRAM regarding using 9 speed derailleurs with 10 speed shifters.  The intent of that post was to provide some credible information regarding the combination of 9 speed derailleurs with 10 speed shifters.  Hopefully this will encourage folks who want to use that combination of shifter/derailleur to not do so.


10 speed Dynasys shimano mountain cable pull is different from 10 speed shimano road.  Don't confuse 9 speed mountain derailleur incompatibility with 10 speed Dynasys with the compatibility between 9 speed mountain and 10 speed shimano road (Other than Tiagra 4700 which is different).

Many of us run 9 speed mountain rear derailleurs on 10 speed Shimano road systems. My commuter bike has a Deore 9 rear derailleur and shifts perfectly with the 105 5700 shifters.  My wife has the same 9 speed derailleur on her Warbird with DA 7800 shifters and again works perfectly on a 10 speed cassette.

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Skldmark

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Reply with quote  #24 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brennus
Brennus, what does an old article about mountain bike shifting have to do with this conversation?

At the top of this thread I read the following text:

"Have a Jamis Renegade and love the bike. Came with Shimano Tiagra 10spd.
Looking for more chain tension to reduce chain slap. Someone recommended a older 9spd XT derailleur.
"

After reading that I posted some text from Shimano and SRAM regarding using 9 speed derailleurs with 10 speed shifters.  The intent of that post was to provide some credible information regarding the combination of 9 speed derailleurs with 10 speed shifters.  Hopefully this will encourage folks who want to use that combination of shifter/derailleur to not do so.
The original topic relates only to Shimano road derailleurs. Shimano road 7,8,9,10 are mostly compatible, Tiagra 4700 being an exception. MTB changed with 10/DynaSys.
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